Clipper - cant believe people still using clipper

Author

cant believe people still using clipper - nice tho

Chris Sennitt

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

well, i've been away from clipper for a good while now - cant believe peeps
still using it.

reminds me of that Year2K joke about the COBOL programmer.
after working on a Y2K project for 3 years he is totally sick of it so he
puts himself into cryogenic storage in Nov 1999 and sets it to wake him in
Feb thinking all the problems will have been sorted by then.

He wakes up - a face looks down at him and he asks what the date is.

he is told its the year 9999

he asks why he has been woken up after all this time

the face above him say "we understand you know how to program in COBOL...."

makes me wonder when the last Clipper application will finally be switched
off :)

Dave Pearson

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

* Chris Sennitt <csennitt@nospam-hotmail.com>:

> makes me wonder when the last Clipper application will finally be switched
> off :)

If it ever is I'd happily bet that the application in question will be a
COBOL compiler written in Clipper.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Al Acker

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

Chris,

I don't use Clipper any more but I stop in from time to time to wonder about
the same things you do <G>.

We all know the bottom line here..... >>> if all else fails....... SHOOT
THE DOG !!!

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Ron Pinkas

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

Hello Chris

> makes me wonder when the last Clipper application will finally be switched

You probably are not aware that there are many new/modern Clipper Language
Compilers, ( C3, Clip, FlagShip, Harbour, xHarbour) that make such question
really odd. Much like if I asked "when the last Basic application will
finally be switched". :-)

Why would anyone ask such question, when the respective language is being
supported by modern compilers, is being enhanced/modernized, and is
considered preferable by various individuals for various tasks?

Ron

Al Acker

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

Ron,

Got to hand it to you.... you're always around to "defend the faith!" <G>.

Not giving you a hard time.... just a pat on the back <g>

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Ron Pinkas

2004-07-23, 3:55 pm

Al,

> Got to hand it to you.... you're always around to "defend the faith!" <G>.
>
> Not giving you a hard time.... just a pat on the back <g>

:-)

Ron

Chris Sennitt

2004-07-23, 8:55 pm

flagship harbour i am aware of - clip xharbour i havent heard of.
i used dbase/clipper since 1984 when i worked for ashton-tate then onto
nantucket then i did VO till 2002 and still dabble in VO a little
so i guess its over 20 years of xBase etc. and i must say - since moving to
C#/.net i miss being able to knock out a small application in a few hours
and a fairly complex on in a few days. i guess when i used c# for 5 to 10
years i will be able to be as productive :)
i even hear they have a vo-like compiler working in the .net arena -might
dabble in that a little, although its the class libs that will all need
re-learning i guess

"Ron Pinkas" <Ron@remove-this.xharbour.com> wrote in message
news:WpcMc.45714$ve2.15331@okepread05...
> Hello Chris
>
switched[color=darkred]
>
> You probably are not aware that there are many new/modern Clipper Language
> Compilers, ( C3, Clip, FlagShip, Harbour, xHarbour) that make such
question
> really odd. Much like if I asked "when the last Basic application will
> finally be switched". :-)
>
> Why would anyone ask such question, when the respective language is being
> supported by modern compilers, is being enhanced/modernized, and is
> considered preferable by various individuals for various tasks?
>
> Ron
>
>

Chris Sennitt

2004-07-23, 8:55 pm

yes Al, "Shoot the dog" still one of my all time fav jokes that one :). a
few years back i tried to search my name on google - having an unusual name
helps sometimes. i found a reference to shoot the dog under one of your
posts :)
nice to know that when they look back on this era and (as if) someone looks
me up - that joke is gonna be next to my name :)

and as (i think) woody allen once said -
"some people achieve immortality through the books they write, films they
make or works of art. I want to achieve it by not dying"

i guess mine is gonna be jokes :)

"Al Acker" <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote in message
news:uIednSI0h-h72pzc4p2dnA@bresnan.com...
> Chris,
>
> I don't use Clipper any more but I stop in from time to time to wonder
about
> the same things you do <G>.
>
> We all know the bottom line here..... >>> if all else fails....... SHOOT
> THE DOG !!!
>
> Al
> --
> Al Acker, President
> Acker Consulting, Inc.
> mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
> http://www.ackerconsulting.com
>
>

Dave Pearson

2004-07-24, 8:55 am

* Al Acker <al@thexbasefiles.com>:

> Got to hand it to you.... you're always around to "defend the faith!" <G>.

Odd how some people see providing useful information that way.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Al Acker

2004-07-24, 8:55 pm

Chris,

Yep, that's a classic.... still remember ROF'L along with Bill French on
that bus ride through South Africa.... great trip with some great friends.

Well when ( if ) you ever die.... maybe they'll put that phrase on your
tombstone! <G>.

Al

"Chris Sennitt" <csennitt@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:EkeMc.102156$q8.32242@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> yes Al, "Shoot the dog" still one of my all time fav jokes that one :). a
> few years back i tried to search my name on google - having an unusual
name
> helps sometimes. i found a reference to shoot the dog under one of your
> posts :)
> nice to know that when they look back on this era and (as if) someone
looks
> me up - that joke is gonna be next to my name :)
>
> and as (i think) woody allen once said -
> "some people achieve immortality through the books they write, films they
> make or works of art. I want to achieve it by not dying"
>
> i guess mine is gonna be jokes :)
>
> "Al Acker" <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote in message
> news:uIednSI0h-h72pzc4p2dnA@bresnan.com...
> about
SHOOT[color=darkred]
>
>

Whos_Asking

2004-07-26, 3:55 am

Cleaning out the study came across Clipper Winter 1984 - serial nuber
002394.

Pristine condition - cellophane around the 5 1/4" disks hasn't even
been broken - and a total of 53 pages on Maual.

Hmm wonder if it will install :)

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:51:25 GMT, "Chris Sennitt"
<csennitt@nospam-hotmail.com> wrote:

>well, i've been away from clipper for a good while now - cant believe peeps
>still using it.
>
>reminds me of that Year2K joke about the COBOL programmer.
>after working on a Y2K project for 3 years he is totally sick of it so he
>puts himself into cryogenic storage in Nov 1999 and sets it to wake him in
>Feb thinking all the problems will have been sorted by then.
>
>He wakes up - a face looks down at him and he asks what the date is.
>
>he is told its the year 9999
>
>he asks why he has been woken up after all this time
>
>the face above him say "we understand you know how to program in COBOL...."
>
>makes me wonder when the last Clipper application will finally be switched
>off :)
>
>

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Tomk

2004-07-27, 3:55 pm

Hi there,

we have done several applications for our different customers in .net, Fox ,... But when absolute speed and reliability at low costs is needed we still use clipper.

We have some REAL specialists on .net and sql, but even they sometimes say : "Just keep your well running application. There is no way in windows to enter data as fast as with clipper (and ADS server)." In this case we prefer to do interfaces between the
clipper data and office, edifact and so on.

Another point : The people using clipper for development all have >15 years experience in setting up a customer application. Sorry but most of the .net guys do not.

And if some data really got damaged : with clipper/.DBF its much easier to repair then on a complex sql system. Logon, dbu ,..

So is the newer thing better or just newer ?

Greetings
tom :-)

I am sure in 2009 I will celebrate the 25' birthday of some of my still running apps.

philb

2004-08-01, 3:55 am

"Chris Sennitt" <csennitt@nospam-hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<xJ8Mc.62881$y04.50598@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...

> makes me wonder when the last Clipper application will finally be switched
> off :)

Harbour Project will be going Beta soon. I expect that the alpha we
just posted is the last alpha version.

Hi, everyone. Nice to see everyone still here!

(And, no, I'm not getting this newsgroup. I just posted this via
google groups...)

Martin

2004-09-13, 3:55 pm

I know the name - can't think where I know you from?

Al Acker

2004-09-13, 3:55 pm

Not sure who you are talking to... If you give me the name maybe I can tell
you where you know him from.

Al

"Martin" <spam@spam.spam> wrote in message
news:ci4673$bhk$4$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> I know the name - can't think where I know you from?
>
>
>

Joe Wright

2004-09-14, 3:55 am

Al Acker wrote:

> Not sure who you are talking to... If you give me the name maybe I can tell
> you where you know him from.
>
> Al
>

[ snip ]

Hi Al. You've been here long enough to know everybody important. I
know you have moved largely from Clipper to Borland stuff, Delphi,
Builder, etc. Have you had the time to take a look at Harbour and
xHarbour? Can you share your estimation of them?
--
Joe Wright mailto:joewwright@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---

Martin

2004-09-15, 8:55 am

I know the name - can't think where I know you from?

Martin

2004-09-17, 8:55 pm

I know the name - can't think where I know you from?

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-10, 8:55 am

Al,

I too have moved from DOS based clipper apps because they were too slow
in moving into the GUI windows platform.
I too have utilized Delphi, C-Builder, VB/SQL server, VFP/Oracle and a
whole slew of other applications.
The reason I moved was because my customers wanted GUI and in 1995 the
gui for clipper was less than desirable.

BUT I AM LOOKING AT CLIPPER AGAIN.

You can port most of your clipper code and run it off dos/window and
linux without too much difficulty.
You can write n-tier gui applications on the linux platform with
clipper and web modules.
And you dont have to worry too much about MS changing operating systems
every 2 years to break your clipper app.

Now what is the advantage of Delphi, VB, VFP MS Sql and whatever you
ported to compared to the "NEW CLIPPER" of today?
I think clipper is heading back on the main stream but on which OS is
another point.

With all the work that has been done over the years just to keep
clipper alive, I think it has potential to get back to where it was in
the
1990's .

I have my favorite apps, I have my least favorite apps.

I used to be a diehard clipperhead that went away for a while.
But from what I see today, I might become a diehard "MODERN
CLIPPERHEAD" of tomorrow.

Return of the prodigal son

Peter B. Steiger

2005-01-10, 3:55 pm

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:02:06 -0800, dsh32 sez:
> You can write n-tier gui applications on the linux platform with
> clipper and web modules.

I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what the heck does "n-tier" mean
in English?

--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY
If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes
where you see stars: wypbs_**3 at bornagain.com.

roman modic

2005-01-10, 3:55 pm

Introduction to Multi-tier/N-tier/3-tier Architectures

http://www.undu.com/Articles/010131f.html

"Peter B. Steiger" <see.sig@for.email.address> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.01.10.16.02.51.3173@access4less.net...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:02:06 -0800, dsh32 sez:
>
> I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what the heck does "n-tier" mean
> in English?
>
> --
> Peter B. Steiger
> Cheyenne, WY
> If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes
> where you see stars: wypbs_**3 at bornagain.com.
>

John Seberg

2005-01-10, 3:55 pm

Peter B. Steiger wrote:
> I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what the heck does "n-tier" mean
> in English?

Client/Server.

The most basic Client/Server is two-tier. 1) Client 2) Server.

But, you could have a very complicated distributed system that has one
or more middle tiers. So, the "n" means "two or more".

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-12, 3:55 pm

tom knauf

2005-01-13, 8:55 am

Hi,

in plain clipper english it means : not necessary :-)

Tom

"Peter B. Steiger" <see.sig@for.email.address> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:pan.2005.01.10.16.02.51.3173@access4less.net...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:02:06 -0800, dsh32 sez:
>
> I'm sure this is a stupid question, but what the heck does "n-tier" mean
> in English?
>
> --
> Peter B. Steiger
> Cheyenne, WY
> If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes
> where you see stars: wypbs_**3 at bornagain.com.
>

Al Acker

2005-01-13, 3:55 pm

Look at the quality of the builder and delphi IDE's and look at the third
party products ( a lot of them being free ) and then you'll know the
advantage of NOT using the NEW Clipper <g>. When and IF the new Clipper
catches up to these products it will / would be great and we'll all have
another tool to use.... but right now competition is too high to use
anything less than the best tools you can find.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

<dsh32@usa.com> wrote in message
news:1105344126.296890.228150@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Al,
>
> I too have moved from DOS based clipper apps because they were too slow
> in moving into the GUI windows platform.
> I too have utilized Delphi, C-Builder, VB/SQL server, VFP/Oracle and a
> whole slew of other applications.
> The reason I moved was because my customers wanted GUI and in 1995 the
> gui for clipper was less than desirable.
>
> BUT I AM LOOKING AT CLIPPER AGAIN.
>
> You can port most of your clipper code and run it off dos/window and
> linux without too much difficulty.
> You can write n-tier gui applications on the linux platform with
> clipper and web modules.
> And you dont have to worry too much about MS changing operating systems
> every 2 years to break your clipper app.
>
> Now what is the advantage of Delphi, VB, VFP MS Sql and whatever you
> ported to compared to the "NEW CLIPPER" of today?
> I think clipper is heading back on the main stream but on which OS is
> another point.
>
> With all the work that has been done over the years just to keep
> clipper alive, I think it has potential to get back to where it was in
> the
> 1990's .
>
> I have my favorite apps, I have my least favorite apps.
>
> I used to be a diehard clipperhead that went away for a while.
> But from what I see today, I might become a diehard "MODERN
> CLIPPERHEAD" of tomorrow.
>
>
>
> Return of the prodigal son
>

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-13, 8:55 pm

Al,

Clipper never had an IDE.
Builder is mostly for gui.
What kind of 3rd party libs do you use?

Right now clipper can do GUI. (FiveTech, Fivewin, Clip, GTK)
You can create client/server applications. (sqlexpress, clip-sql)
You can create webserver application.

The only thing is clipper has been broken into various versions.
Xbase++, clip, fivewin, xharbour, etc.

Builers are something I try to stay away from as much as possible.
All you need to do is create your own gui modules and create a template
for all the gui controllers and you have your own set or reusable gui
modules. That will be like a builder.

Clipper takes more work and effort but it is all there.
This has always been the case with clipper anyways, more work to create
a smaller executable file that will run like C.

Someone just has to wrap all the functionality and put it all together
in
one nice package.

Do you .NET ? Is .NET a better application?

"Modern ClipperHead"

Al Acker wrote:
> Look at the quality of the builder and delphi IDE's and look at the
third
> party products ( a lot of them being free ) and then you'll know the
> advantage of NOT using the NEW Clipper <g>. When and IF the new
Clipper
> catches up to these products it will / would be great and we'll all
have[color=darkred]
> another tool to use.... but right now competition is too high to use
> anything less than the best tools you can find.
>
> Al
> --
> Al Acker, President
> Acker Consulting, Inc.
> mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
> http://www.ackerconsulting.com
>
> <dsh32@usa.com> wrote in message
> news:1105344126.296890.228150@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
slow[color=darkred]
and a[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
systems[color=darkred]
you[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
in[color=darkred]

Mike

2005-01-13, 8:55 pm

I am happy to see that some one thinks Clipper is coming back.

My question is "Wwhat is new?" Clipper and Linux is almost as old as
Clipper.

Mike

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-13, 8:55 pm

Read previous posts for "NEW" or even the entire newsgroup.
Clipper and Linux is "NEW" compared to windows of "OLD".

Basic, C and Assembler is "OLD" but there are still "GOOD" uses for
them.

Anything that can be created and works well is "GOOD".
"GOOD" and "NEW" := "COOL"

Al Acker

2005-01-13, 8:55 pm

> Clipper never had an IDE.
> Builder is mostly for gui.
> What kind of 3rd party libs do you use?

PLEASE.... bone up on your background knowledge before continuing this
conversation. I'll just mention 3 things for you to check up on before you
reply

>Clipper never had an IDE.
Not in a strict sense...but products like UI, Genefer, Magic coppled with
products like Brief and ME with Evolve and using Blinker simulated things
that are in todays IDEs.... With FiveWin / Clip etc you had the above with
the addition of BRW.

>Builder is mostly for gui.
Wrong... both Builder and Delphi ( the same product in the next release ),
can create console apps / gui both win32 and .net / service apps, web apps
etc.

> What kind of 3rd party libs do you use?
run over to Torry.net and see what's available. ( plan to spend awhile ).

BTW.... how long have you been using Clipper?

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-14, 3:55 am

Al,

> products like UI, Genefer, Magic coppled with
> products like Brief and ME with Evolve and using Blinker simulated
things
> that are in todays IDEs.... With FiveWin / Clip etc you had the
above with
> the addition of BRW.

Sorry but I still use a text editor for my clipper stuff.
Never needed an IDE.

As far as the builder was concerned I thought you were referring to
the builder as in MS VFP builder for building gui controls. HAHA.

So the only difference I can see is the 3rd party lib files that you
mentioned.
Not all programmers will have a need for all the 3rd libraries for
creating robust clipper applications.

Looks like you are promoting Delphi as "the replacement" for Clipper
while
Clipper of today has the capability of doing dos/win/win32/client
server /web and more.

As for the .NET strategy is concerned, many people dont like it and
dont care for it.

The problem lies in the fact that most mainstream applications slowed
down in
terms of advancing their products while the clipper community has
rapidly caught up.

Did you say torrey.net as in www.torrey.net?
Looks like www.torrey.net is up for sale with a minimum bid of $750
It also averages about 13 hits per day.

Al Acker wrote:
>
> PLEASE.... bone up on your background knowledge before continuing
this
> conversation. I'll just mention 3 things for you to check up on
before you
> reply
>
> Not in a strict sense...but products like UI, Genefer, Magic coppled
with
> products like Brief and ME with Evolve and using Blinker simulated
things
> that are in todays IDEs.... With FiveWin / Clip etc you had the
above with
> the addition of BRW.
>
> Wrong... both Builder and Delphi ( the same product in the next
release ),
> can create console apps / gui both win32 and .net / service apps, web
apps
> etc.
>
> run over to Torry.net and see what's available. ( plan to spend
awhile ).
>
> BTW.... how long have you been using Clipper?
>
> Al
> --
> Al Acker, President
> Acker Consulting, Inc.
> mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
> http://www.ackerconsulting.com

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-14, 3:55 am

Al Acker wrote:
>
> PLEASE.... bone up on your background knowledge before continuing
this
> conversation. I'll just mention 3 things for you to check up on
before you
> reply
>
> Not in a strict sense...but products like UI, Genefer, Magic coppled
with
> products like Brief and ME with Evolve and using Blinker simulated
things
> that are in todays IDEs.... With FiveWin / Clip etc you had the
above with
> the addition of BRW.
>
> Wrong... both Builder and Delphi ( the same product in the next
release ),
> can create console apps / gui both win32 and .net / service apps, web
apps
> etc.
>
> run over to Torry.net and see what's available. ( plan to spend
awhile ).
>
> BTW.... how long have you been using Clipper?
>
> Al
> --
> Al Acker, President
> Acker Consulting, Inc.
> mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
> http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Tom Walden

2005-01-14, 3:55 am

Well after using VO for 6 years fulltime, I'm actually now back doing
Clipper work again fulltime. I found a number of Clipper opportunities, but
only a single VO one out in California. Needless to say, Clipper is still
alive and kicking. In fact I'm working in a Clipper shop here in Pittsburgh
with a total of 10 fulltime Clipperheads. I'm only here as a contractor,
but they are struggling to replace these huge Clipper apps with VB.net ones
at this company. It is mostly straight Clipper code with one large FiveWin
app. And there are 600+ people using these Clipper apps on a Novell
network, and with millions of records in some of the files.

Tom Walden

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-14, 3:55 am

Tom Walden wrote:
> Well after using VO for 6 years fulltime, I'm actually now back doing
> Clipper work again fulltime. I found a number of Clipper
opportunities, but
> only a single VO one out in California. Needless to say, Clipper is
still
> alive and kicking. In fact I'm working in a Clipper shop here in
Pittsburgh
> with a total of 10 fulltime Clipperheads. I'm only here as a
contractor,
> but they are struggling to replace these huge Clipper apps with
VB.net ones
> at this company. It is mostly straight Clipper code with one large
FiveWin
> app. And there are 600+ people using these Clipper apps on a Novell
> network, and with millions of records in some of the files.
>
> Tom Walden

You are trying to tell me that 600 people using clipper/fivewin apps on
Novell
network with millions of records are letting you convert the entire
system into vb.net ?

Why vb.net? Most Vb programmers are reluctant to convert to any .NET
platform. MS even took the .NET out of their product line and calling
it
visual studio 2005 or something.

Go check the visual basic newsgroups and see if there are more than a
handful of VB programmers who actually like .NET and is currently using
it.

You mean that VFP version 5-9 and VB version 5,6 and Delphi version 3-5
isn't and wasnt good enough to entice the company to convert but the
..NET is?

WOW you got me there.

Al Acker

2005-01-14, 3:55 pm

> Sorry but I still use a text editor for my clipper stuff.
> Never needed an IDE.

Depends what your definition of an IDE was..... I used IDE's with Clipper
all the time, it was not a single product, but they integrated very well.
The central part of the "IDE" was Brief with Evolve, then I moved to
Multi-Edit with Evolve. UI, and Blinker and one of the debugging programs
were all part of my IDE. Later FiveWin and BRW entered the picture.

>
> As far as the builder was concerned I thought you were referring to
> the builder as in MS VFP builder for building gui controls. HAHA.
>
That underscores my concerns about you not knowing exactly what I was
talking about.

> So the only difference I can see is the 3rd party lib files that you
> mentioned.
> Not all programmers will have a need for all the 3rd libraries for
> creating robust clipper applications.

It all depends on the needs of the application and the needs of the client.
Not many main stream companies are requesting plain Jane dos apps these days
<g>.

>
> Looks like you are promoting Delphi as "the replacement" for Clipper
> while Clipper of today has the capability of doing dos/win/win32/client
> server /web and more.

No, actually not. I prefer C++ Builder over Delphi, but that's just because
of the syntax. Both produce basically the same native code EXE's. Before
the end of the year both products will come in one box... called BDS...but
that's besides the point.

One can not "promote" anything without knowing the needs of the programmer,
the application, the client, how much "lifetime" the app needs, the
environment its playing in... etc etc etc. People that make general
assumptions without knowing the background info... are just wasting peoples
time.

>
> As for the .NET strategy is concerned, many people don't like it and
> dont care for it.

Personally, I don't like .NET either...but that's just because I don't like
my applications depending on a Microsoft "run time" that can change and
break things. But if a client wants a .NET app. I need to be able to give
them what they want and I need the tools to be able to do that. Personally,
I like win32 apps that don't require "run times".

>
> The problem lies in the fact that most mainstream applications slowed
> down in terms of advancing their products while the clipper community has
> rapidly caught up.
>

Have no clue what you mean by the above. The industry is moving so fast
right now that the only chance one has of staying any place near current is
to use tools from large companies. Even Borland is pressed to stay
current with the latest op systems from MS... they are doing it but it keeps
them on their toes <g>.

> Did you say torrey.net as in www.torrey.net?

If I did, it was a typo.... it should be www.torry.net ( forget the e ) <g>.
Just go there and click on VCL.... that will get you started.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Al Acker

2005-01-14, 3:55 pm

Hi Tom,

Long time no talk! Get me the name of that company.... they'll need another
conversion after they try VB.NET <GGG>.

As you know VB.net is nothing like VB and I assume they're going to use
MSSQL as the back end? That will do the job for sure, but what a lousy
syntax <g> ( Just my opinion on the syntax ). That conversion is going to
cost a ton compared to some other alternatives out there. But I'm not
advocating any xbase products here. IMO Clipper converts to a C++
application better than any other "main stream" language. I guess because
the people that wrote Clipper were all C types <g>. I know a lot of Clipper
was moved to Delphi, but I think C++ is even better. I thought you were
doing mostly VO these days.... have you used the new version? I hear it's
pretty hot but I haven't had a chance to play with it.

BTW if any of you ever need to do something in VB.NET and MSSQL.... I found
a dynamite book to get you started... and it comes with a full accounting
system worth of source code.... stand by... let me dig up the link...

www.vkinfotek.com is the link.... and the books are 20 bucks. If you need
to learn to play VB.NET.... it's a great buy.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-14, 8:55 pm

Al,

You are suggesting revamping clipper to CBuilder and Delphi.
That is the bottom line.
That might have had some pull about 3 years ago but not anymore.

As mentioned previously, clipper can do gui/client server/n-tier apps
today.
I think we should all convert CBuilder/Delphi/Visual Basic/Visual
foxpro back into clipper.
Seems like you fear the clipper community rebounding and make everyone
convert ASAP
before time runs out.

I think promoting another language/system to the clipper community is
outdated.<G>
You cant promote something when the system you are promoting has few
advantages.

If you cannot use clipper for something you are free to choose whatever
program you like.
Thats the freedom all programmers have.

Java, Perl, Python, C/C++, KDE, GTk, QT and a whole slew of other
languages are available as well.

3rd party libs you are referring to is just a matter of time before
they are ported to the clipper environment.

I use many languages for my needs and just like to congradulate
everyone who have worked on bring back
clipper. Its one of my all time favorite language that I can utilize
for many of my needs.

"LONG LIVE CLIPPER"

Modern Clipperhead

Al Acker

2005-01-14, 8:55 pm

>>
you are suggesting revamping clipper to CBuilder and Delphi.
That is the bottom line. That might have had some pull about 3 years ago
but not anymore.[color=darkred]
As mentioned previously, clipper can do gui/client server/n-tier apps
today. I think we should all convert CBuilder/Delphi/Visual Basic/Visual
foxpro back into clipper. Seems like you fear the clipper community
rebounding and make everyone
convert ASAP before time runs out.[color=darkred]

You make it sound like I'm trying to sell something. Why? I don't have
stock in any particular product here.... I'm just tossing out some ideas and
talking about what I've found to be true. I can very easily code in
Clipper, and I've looked at harbour and xHarbour. It would take me about a
w

to get up and running in either... same for VO, dBASE and Xbase++.
I've used all three to create decent apps ( but you need to jump through too
many hoops for my liking to get Xbase++ and dBASE to work right.

I hate fox, but it's also a very usable product these days. Our company
codes mostly in C++ and Delphi these days and some VS ( when needed ). It
really doesn't make any difference to me what tool YOU use.... I'm just
talking about what tools give ME and our clients the best bang for the buck
right now.

Now when you talk about converting CBuilder/Delphi etc apps BACK to
Clipper... you're just advertising your stupidity. There is zero advantage
of converting a native, strictly typed exe back to a product that uses loose
typing and a run time.... the native app creates a tighter / faster app....
doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this... The only reason to
convert any app is due to the following reasons.

A) Corporate choice.... ie some "coat" thinks that the entire company needs
to move to .NET. ( IE stupidity <g> ).
B) An app no longer performs the functions needed or performs fast
enough... and needs to be upgraded.
C) An app no longer performs correctly on a newer operating system.
D) A new function point needs to be added and it's not efficient to add
that function point using the old platform.
E) Corporate looks for a long term solution and picks a platform that can
be worked on by the largest amount of programming talent available. ( I
consider this a valid concern in some cases but not all cases.... ie add up
number of programmers that know C++, Delphi and VB and then compare that to
the number that know dBASE, VO, Xbase++, Harbour, xHarbour, and even
Clipper. I don't have a feel about the number of Fox users these days, but
I wouldn't be surprised that their numbers total as much as all the other
xbase products combined.

Any other reason to convert a program is most likely due to some form of
job protection....either by management or the programming dept.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Andi Jahja

2005-01-15, 3:55 am

Promoting a product whilst "killing" another is not too good for
a person of Al Acker's caliber, IMO.

Andi

"Al Acker" <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote:

Look at the quality of the builder and delphi IDE's and look at the
third party products ( a lot of them being free ) and then you'll know
the advantage of NOT using the NEW Clipper <g>.

Al Acker

2005-01-15, 3:55 am

Andi,

No one is "killing" a product... You have to first not cut one sentence out
of one of my posts and take it out of context and second, you have to read
this thread and a few other threads in full.... that I've been a part of
here.

Let's say you have a Clipper app of a few hundred thousand lines of code
invested. You want to convert this to a win32 app with no major changes and
advancements.... You also only know Clipper and have no other "quick"
options to turn to.

That's a perfect time where you would want to consider one of the "new"
Clippers out there.

IMO, the more tools out there the better we all are... I choose the tool
that best fits what I need to do.... that's the bottom line.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

"Andi Jahja" <somewhere@internet.com> wrote in message
news:cs9qf5$ufk$1@newsreader.mailgate.org...
> Promoting a product whilst "killing" another is not too good for
> a person of Al Acker's caliber, IMO.
>
> Andi
>
> "Al Acker" <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote:
>
> Look at the quality of the builder and delphi IDE's and look at the
> third party products ( a lot of them being free ) and then you'll know
> the advantage of NOT using the NEW Clipper <g>.

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-15, 3:55 am

Al,

Clipper lasted this long you think it is just another product?
You think programmers held onto clipper for their job security and they
were never capable of learning another language?

Many times when going away from clipper many programmers found that
they lost functionality.
Many times when using client/server they found lost in flexibility.

Hmm I dont think you have an idea as to what Clipper really is.
Its not just another product it is a LEGEND that continues.

It's a product that outdid foxpro, paradox, dbase and any other 4GL
languages out there in the DOS platform.
It was the #1 product in its prime.

I think it will outdo many other products in the GUI platform as well.
It is a product that will works in windows and linux. I dont think you
can say that about your programs and the vcl libs.
We will revamp everything into clipper.

HAHA.

Al Acker

2005-01-15, 3:55 am

> Clipper lasted this long you think it is just another product?
Point of order.... Clipper is a dead product that is no longer being
enhanced. Brian still will sell it but don't look for any updates any time
soon <g>. Please be more specific as to what you're talking about... if
you're talking about Clipper say so... if you're talking about Harbour,
xHarbour or any other xbase product.... say so and be specific.

> You think programmers held onto clipper for their job security and they
> were never capable of learning another language?
In some cases yes.... but not that they were not capable.... they forgot
they had the ability to learn something new and were too lazy to try.

>
> Many times when going away from clipper many programmers found that
> they lost functionality.

That's because they didn't take the time to learn how to do things using the
new language. ie they were either too lazy to take the time, or didn't have
the time to take.

See above.
[color=darkred]
>
> Hmm I dont think you have an idea as to what Clipper really is.

I don't think you have a clue as to who I am < ROFL >.... you never answered
my first question.... how long have you been using Clipper.... and what
version did you start out with?

> Its not just another product it is a LEGEND that continues.

People like you create business for me.... you hold on as long as you can
and never upgrade your skillset or tools. Believe me.... if anyone here
would have an excuse to treat Clipper like a religion... I would be that
person. But I'm practical enough to know that people who treat their tools
like religions end up being burried with those tools when they become
obsolete.

Harbour and xHarbour have a chance to let the Clipper language survive a tad
longer.... but they'll need a huge amount of support to catch up to the
other players out there. Till that happens, I have to be able to compete in
the market place and they're not there yet. When / if that happens... I'll
have another tool to use. If it doesn't happen, I won't be burried with
them <G>.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-15, 3:55 am

Al Acker

2005-01-15, 8:55 am

Peter B. Steiger

2005-01-15, 8:55 am

roman modic

2005-01-15, 8:55 am

John Seberg

2005-01-15, 8:55 am

Przemyslaw Czerpak

2005-01-15, 8:55 am

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:37:44 -0700,
Al Acker <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote:
> Look at the quality of the builder and delphi IDE's and look at the third
> party products ( a lot of them being free ) and then you'll know the
> advantage of NOT using the NEW Clipper <g>. When and IF the new Clipper
> catches up to these products it will / would be great and we'll all have
> another tool to use.... but right now competition is too high to use
> anything less than the best tools you can find.

At this moment Delphi is not alternative - it's strictly Windows
oriented and you will have to forget about multiplatform programs
(KYLIX is not serious product for commercial applications - it uses
WINE (Windows emulator) to work on Linux, the final binaries are
slaw, very huge and the bad thing: very unstable. They also need
horrible runtime environment (over 100Mb) to run so now it's nothing
more then a toy necessary for Borland to say that you can migrate
to other platforms what in real life is not true). IMHO Suggesting
that someone should invest his time to Delhpi now is like telling
5-6 years ago that Clipper 5.x is the best choice for next years.
With [x]Harbour I can move my application to nearly all systems.
At this moment: DOS, Windows, OS2, Linux, *BSD, SunOS, HP-UX, MAC-OSX
with different hardware (x86@32, x86@64, sparc32, sparc64, PPC, alpha64,
MIPS, ARM, ...) and I can create new ports of [x]Harbour to nearly all
existing platforms which have C compiler usually in a few days.
And what I can do with Delphi?
No way - it's not an alternative for anyone who wants to create
portable and scalable programs.
I can use Delphi to create some short life applications but for sure
it's not a platform where I will want to develop new big project
which I will have to keep alive for next years.

best regards,
Przemek

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-15, 3:55 pm

Al,

You should talk to visual basic forum and convince VB6 programmers to
use .NET.

You are the one who is treating an App like a religion.
You are stuck on the "Windows OS"

There are a whole slew of programs out there today for creating gui
client server.
Python/gtk/mysql, perl/gtk/mysql, clipper/gtk/mysql, c/c++/gtk/mysql
are a few to mention.

Some will work on BOTH windows and linux and some only on linux.
I guess delphi /cbuilder doesnt even exist in the linux os.

I will not ditch CBuilder because I do tinker with it once in a while.

But Delphi is old and is headed toward the RIP bucket.
Funny you should come here and down play clipper while your app is on
the brink of death row.
Maybe there will be followers for delphi to keep it alive?
Well think about it.

Al Acker

2005-01-15, 3:55 pm

Przemek,

Please reread my notes... I'm not sure why you guys think I'm a pro Delphi
guy.... I much prefer C++.

With ref to Linux, that adds another factor that you have to consider when
picking out a tool. Remember my rule.... add in all the factors and pick
the best tool for the job. . That's the bottom line here.

Another factor.... are you going to develop stricktly for Linux.... or does
the app need to be created for _BOTH_ win32 and linux. If it has to be
used on both.... that will dictate the tool somewhat and even more important
if it's a gui app... it will dictate the GUI lib that you use. Lot's of
tools can create both win32 and linux apps...but remember that the GUI has
to go both ways also.

If I was creating an app that had to go both ways... I'd look at the tool,
and _also_ the gui lib. You want to make as few changes as possible in the
build process when building the windows version and the linux version.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

"Przemyslaw Czerpak" <druzus@polbox.com> wrote in message
news:slrncui02l.5hr.druzus@189-moc-1.acn.waw.pl...
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:37:44 -0700,
> Al Acker <al@thexbasefiles.com> wrote:
>
> At this moment Delphi is not alternative - it's strictly Windows
> oriented and you will have to forget about multiplatform programs
> (KYLIX is not serious product for commercial applications - it uses
> WINE (Windows emulator) to work on Linux, the final binaries are
> slaw, very huge and the bad thing: very unstable. They also need
> horrible runtime environment (over 100Mb) to run so now it's nothing
> more then a toy necessary for Borland to say that you can migrate
> to other platforms what in real life is not true). IMHO Suggesting
> that someone should invest his time to Delhpi now is like telling
> 5-6 years ago that Clipper 5.x is the best choice for next years.
> With [x]Harbour I can move my application to nearly all systems.
> At this moment: DOS, Windows, OS2, Linux, *BSD, SunOS, HP-UX, MAC-OSX
> with different hardware (x86@32, x86@64, sparc32, sparc64, PPC, alpha64,
> MIPS, ARM, ...) and I can create new ports of [x]Harbour to nearly all
> existing platforms which have C compiler usually in a few days.
> And what I can do with Delphi?
> No way - it's not an alternative for anyone who wants to create
> portable and scalable programs.
> I can use Delphi to create some short life applications but for sure
> it's not a platform where I will want to develop new big project
> which I will have to keep alive for next years.
>
> best regards,
> Przemek

Al Acker

2005-01-15, 3:55 pm

dsh32,

Seems you just want to argue and you're not making sense.... so this will
most likely be my last reply to you. Let me take your points in order. (
something you never seem to do with my posts.... you just randomly try to
pick a new argument ).

> You should talk to visual basic forum and convince VB6 programmers to
> use .NET.

Why? I never said I liked .NET. Given a choice I rather create win32
apps.... go back a few messages and read why I prefer not to use .NET. But
I did give some tips on a book on how to use it. Because there are clients
that demand .NET.

> You are the one who is treating an App like a religion.
> You are stuck on the "Windows OS"
Why do you say that? What did I ever say that gave you that impression. I
happen to have a Linux server running at my house and to be fair, I also
have a Windows 2000 advanced server running here and also two of them for
web sites. I use the best tool for the job and that includes the OS. But
99 percent of the time, when you are asked to create an app...your client
will already have their IT infrastructure set up...and you have to be able
to fit in... no matter what it is.

> There are a whole slew of programs out there today for creating gui
> client server.
> Python/gtk/mysql, perl/gtk/mysql, clipper/gtk/mysql, c/c++/gtk/mysql
> are a few to mention.
>

Exactly and you should use the best tool for the job.... you seem to be the
one with the religion here.. not I.

> Some will work on BOTH windows and linux and some only on linux.
> I guess delphi /cbuilder doesnt even exist in the linux os.

That's not exactly true ( or won't be with the next release <G> )...but yes,
Borland has CBX ( C++ ) for cross platform right now. BDS will change
things a lot and could end up captuing a lot of VS users, mainly because of
the cross platform capabilities and not being tied to .NET. ( but having
the capability if needed ).

>
> I will not ditch CBuilder because I do tinker with it once in a while.
>
> But Delphi is old and is headed toward the RIP bucket.

There you go not knowing what you're talking about.... It sounds like you
don't know about BDS ( Borland Delphi Studio ).

> Funny you should come here and down play clipper while your app is on the
> brink of death row.
> Maybe there will be followers for delphi to keep it alive?
> Well think about it.

I have no clue what you're talking about here.... what app??? Again, do a
little research and see what direction C++ Builder, CBX, and Delphi are
headed before you make uninformed statements.

Also, you seem to be trying to accuse me of being a one product person when
you are the one spouting the "Clipper only" lines. I use Borland products
(mostly) and Microsoft products.... My company is also a Microsoft partner.
But that doesn't force me to use _only_ Microsoft products. If the need
arose, I would not be adverse to doing a VO, dBASE, or xHarbour app.... or
just about anything else for that matter.... but the need has to be there
first.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-15, 8:55 pm

Al Acker wrote:

to[color=darkred]
> Why? I never said I liked .NET. Given a choice I rather create
win32
> apps.... go back a few messages and read why I prefer not to use
..NET. But
> I did give some tips on a book on how to use it. Because there are
clients
> that demand .NET.

This topic is the direction MS is going and VB programmers are
resisting the
technology. The same as clipper commnity have been. Get it? Dont get
it?
Resisting new technology is nothing new.

>
> Why do you say that? What did I ever say that gave you that
impression. I
> happen to have a Linux server running at my house and to be fair, I
also
> have a Windows 2000 advanced server running here and also two of them
for
> web sites. I use the best tool for the job and that includes the OS.
But
> 99 percent of the time, when you are asked to create an app...your
client
> will already have their IT infrastructure set up...and you have to be
able
> to fit in... no matter what it is.
>

I congradulate you.

>
c/c++/gtk/mysql[color=darkred]
> Exactly and you should use the best tool for the job.... you seem to
be the
> one with the religion here.. not I.
>

Where is the religion? Its all about the different options to choose
whatever you want to program in. Get it? options <> religion?
This means there are many many ways to go. "Freedom to choose".
What is "BEST" for you is an opinion. What is "BEST" depends on the
background
of a particular programmer. But foremost the needs of the company.

>
> That's not exactly true ( or won't be with the next release <G>
)...but yes,
> Borland has CBX ( C++ ) for cross platform right now. BDS will
change
> things a lot and could end up captuing a lot of VS users, mainly
because of
> the cross platform capabilities and not being tied to .NET. ( but
having
> the capability if needed ).

Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA

>
> There you go not knowing what you're talking about.... It sounds
like you
> don't know about BDS ( Borland Delphi Studio ).
>
Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA

on the[color=darkred]
>
> I have no clue what you're talking about here.... what app???
Again, do a
> little research and see what direction C++ Builder, CBX, and Delphi
are
> headed before you make uninformed statements.
>
Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA

> Also, you seem to be trying to accuse me of being a one product
person when
> you are the one spouting the "Clipper only" lines. I use Borland
products
> (mostly) and Microsoft products.... My company is also a Microsoft
partner.
> But that doesn't force me to use _only_ Microsoft products. If the
need
> arose, I would not be adverse to doing a VO, dBASE, or xHarbour
app.... or
> just about anything else for that matter.... but the need has to be
there
> first.

Clipper only? You need to REREAD from the beginning.
As I said numerous number of times, "Modern Clipper" can do c/s, gui
and ntier.
If a company wants client/server, gui app then can use Modern Clipper.
It is a viable option.

Agree? Disagree? You will complain that there are no 3rd party vcl libs
so
you cannot do the job in modern clipper? Get it? Dont get it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Needs of a company depends on who/whom does the actual system analysis
on
the preexisting system.
No system analysts will come out with the same exact need/needs for a
company
and select the same exact tools to implement it.

If a system analyst use mostly MS, he will suggest MS.
If a system analyst use mostly Borland, he will suggest Borland.
If java then java
If python then python
If perl then perl
If c then c
Do you get it? Dont you get it?

If you are the one that does the system analysis, I am pretty sure
you will pick what you have been promoting.

Basically what I am trying to tell you is there are many many ways to
go these days and the "BEST" tool for the job depends on the situation.

I myself use delphi and cbuilder as mentioned in the previous posts.

I personally do not think Delphi is the "BEST" tool for ME.
Especially in linux.
I will choose what works best for me.

Get it? Dont get it?

Tom Walden

2005-01-15, 8:55 pm

> You are trying to tell me that 600 people using clipper/fivewin apps on
Novell network with millions of records are letting you convert the entire
system into vb.net ? Why vb.net?

Why vb.net? Cause some over-paid outside consultant came in a couple years
ago and told the "big guy" that he needs to get rid of Clipper (at the time
the Clipper apps were unstable, but not now) and upgrade to web browser
applications using vb.net and SQL Server. They are in the process of their
4th attempt to do so. Duh!!! But hey, the longer they take, probably the
longer I'll be here...<G>...

Tom Walden

2005-01-15, 8:55 pm

Hey Al,

Yep, long time no talk...

> I thought you were doing mostly VO these days.... have you used the new
version?

Yes I have been, but I also have to go where the market is, and right now
there are way more Clipper positions around then VO (like zero). Amazing
how easily/quickly the Clipper stuff came back to me. Guess it's engrained
into my old Clipperhead...<g>. But no, I haven't used VO 2.7 yet, and
probably won't until I have a need to. They are working on VO.net now, for
what that's worth. But Brian says that often he sells more Clipper then VO
boxes each month. Go figure...

Tom

Al Acker

2005-01-16, 8:55 am

dsh32.... BTW do you have a name?

A post that I can mostly agree with! WOW !!! <g>.

>
> This topic is the direction MS is going and VB programmers are
> resisting the
> technology. The same as clipper community have been. Get it? Dont get
> it?
> Resisting new technology is nothing new.

This IS true.... most people tend to like to try in their area of
"comfort".... but this may or may not be the best thing for them in the long
run.... most people tend to not want to learn something new until _forced_
to do it. Then after being forced...they say... hay, this wasn't as bad as
I thought! <g>.

>
> I congratulate you.
>
Thanks.

> Where is the religion? Its all about the different options to choose
> whatever you want to program in. Get it? options <> religion?

True... but when you first started your posts you wanted people to move
everything back to Clipper.... That doesn't sound like options to me <g>.

> This means there are many many ways to go. "Freedom to choose".
> What is "BEST" for you is an opinion. What is "BEST" depends on the
> background
> of a particular programmer. But foremost the needs of the company.
>

True again... see above.

> Clipper only? You need to REREAD from the beginning.
> As I said numerous number of times, "Modern Clipper" can do c/s, gui
> and ntier.
> If a company wants client/server, gui app then can use Modern Clipper.
> It is a viable option.
>
> Agree? Disagree?

For some yes, for others no.... depending on the requirements of the app.

You will complain that there are no 3rd party vcl libs
> so
> you cannot do the job in modern clipper? Get it? Dont get it?

See above.

> Needs of a company depends on who/whom does the actual system analysis
> on
> the preexisting system.
> No system analysts will come out with the same exact need/needs for a
> company
> and select the same exact tools to implement it.
>
> If a system analyst use mostly MS, he will suggest MS.
> If a system analyst use mostly Borland, he will suggest Borland.
> If java then java
> If python then python
> If perl then perl
> If c then c
> Do you get it? Dont you get it?
>
> If you are the one that does the system analysis, I am pretty sure
> you will pick what you have been promoting.
>

When you know more than one product... you will be less biased towards only
one solution. I think I have an advantage in that respect.

Al

--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Al Acker

2005-01-16, 8:55 am

Tom,

Yep, understand.

Well when they give up on VB.net.... let me know. There are so many other
options out there right now that would make the port so much easier. VB.net
is ok....but for a Clipper conversion.... I'd sure pick other options.
Also I've found that there are very few VB types that really understand
database apps. Hopefully your crew is better.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

"Tom Walden" <twalden1@No.Spam.cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6qCdncZK8YNCAXTcRVn-uA@comcast.com...[color=darkred]
> Hey Al,
>
> Yep, long time no talk...
>
> version?
>
> Yes I have been, but I also have to go where the market is, and right now
> there are way more Clipper positions around then VO (like zero). Amazing
> how easily/quickly the Clipper stuff came back to me. Guess it's
> engrained
> into my old Clipperhead...<g>. But no, I haven't used VO 2.7 yet, and
> probably won't until I have a need to. They are working on VO.net now,
> for
> what that's worth. But Brian says that often he sells more Clipper then
> VO
> boxes each month. Go figure...
>
> Tom
>
>

Dave Pearson

2005-01-16, 3:55 pm

* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:

> [SNIP]
>
> Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Here you go again promoting Delphi. HAHA

Al takes the time to give you some pointers about the current state of
Delphi and you read it as "promotion". I suspect you might have a
comprehension problem here.

> I personally do not think Delphi is the "BEST" tool for ME.
> Especially in linux.
> I will choose what works best for me.
>
> Get it? Dont get it?

I suspect that if you go back and read what Al was saying you'll find that
you're now saying something similar.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-16, 3:55 pm

This is pay back to what Al said in 7/23/2004

--------snipped----------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Acker Jul 23 2004, 10:11 am show options

Newsgroups: comp.lang.clipper
From: "Al Acker" <a...@thexbasefiles.com> - Find messages by this
author
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:11:19 -0600
Local: Fri, Jul 23 2004 10:11 am
Subject: Re: cant believe people still using clipper - nice tho
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

Chris,

I don't use Clipper any more but I stop in from time to time to wonder
about
the same things you do <G>.

We all know the bottom line here..... >>> if all else fails.......
SHOOT
THE DOG !!!

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:a...@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

Reply
--------snipped----------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to have forgotten about that?

And now he comes into comp.lang.clipper to show all the new features of
delphi/c++builder and asks
why you should use "modern clipper".
He wants to shoot the dog how many times?

Al Acker

2005-01-17, 3:55 am

Pay back?

"Shoot the dog" was a punch line for some joke told to us by Chris on a
bus trip in South Africa. Did you take that remark personally? <g>.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

<dsh32@usa.com> wrote in message
news:1105891554.243007.111330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> This is pay back to what Al said in 7/23/2004
>
> --------snipped----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Al Acker Jul 23 2004, 10:11 am show options
>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.clipper
> From: "Al Acker" <a...@thexbasefiles.com> - Find messages by this
> author
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:11:19 -0600
> Local: Fri, Jul 23 2004 10:11 am
> Subject: Re: cant believe people still using clipper - nice tho
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> original | Report Abuse
>
> Chris,
>
>
> I don't use Clipper any more but I stop in from time to time to wonder
> about
> the same things you do <G>.
>
>
> We all know the bottom line here..... >>> if all else fails.......
> SHOOT
> THE DOG !!!
>
>
> Al
> --
> Al Acker, President
> Acker Consulting, Inc.
> mailto:a...@thexbasefiles.com
> http://www.ackerconsulting.com
>
>
> Reply
> --------snipped----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You seem to have forgotten about that?
>
> And now he comes into comp.lang.clipper to show all the new features of
> delphi/c++builder and asks
> why you should use "modern clipper".
> He wants to shoot the dog how many times?
>

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 8:55 am

* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:

> This is pay back to what Al said in 7/23/2004

"Pay back"?

> You seem to have forgotten about that?

Unlike you I'm not interested in grudges. Unlike you I'm not interested in
"paying back" for something someone said six months ago -- especially
without being honest and up-front about the motivation for "paying back".

> And now he comes into comp.lang.clipper to show all the new features of
> delphi/c++builder and asks why you should use "modern clipper".

It's such a shame that your desire for "pay back" for something that someone
said six months ago has blurred your ability to notice an interesting
question.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Dave,

> It's such a shame that your desire for "pay back" for something that
someone
> said six months ago has blurred your ability to notice an interesting
> question.
>
> --
> Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release
functions.

What is the interesting question that need to be noticed?

I guess you are right I am blurred.

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Modern Clipper has now the capability to shoot the dog.

Instead of clipper being targeted, the dog is now delphi, vb, vfp or
what ever.

I like to play some role reversal.

dsh32@usa.com

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Dave,

Look at Al's website.
I guess I didn't get an opportunity to visit his web site.

I thought I was "Defending the Faith" but at the same time being an
obstacle to someone's livelihood.

When it comes to business we need to shoot 1 application to make room
for another.
But then again if we shoot 1 and kill 1 and then make the other one
shoot back and kill the other, it would create
a loop where the entire cycle can last forever and ever.
Interesting concept.

Tom Walden

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:

> Look at Al's website.

Why? Does it make any difference to your ability to comprehend the question
you said he was asking? Does it give conclusive proof of the things you were
pinning on him?

> I thought I was "Defending the Faith" but at the same time being an
> obstacle to someone's livelihood.

What "faith" do you think you're defending?

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:

> Dave,
>
>
> What is the interesting question that need to be noticed?

The one in your paragraph that my quoted text above was a response to. The
one you spoke about. The question you said that Al had asked.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:

> Modern Clipper has now the capability to shoot the dog.

What do you actually mean by "shoot the dog"?

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Al Acker

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Al Acker

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Al Acker

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Dave,

In a message I sent to Chris Sennet awhile back at the end of the message I
said "and don't forget to shoot the dog".... obviously this guy thought I
was talking about shooting Clipper.... when in fact "shoot the dog" was a
punch line to one of Chris's jokes that he was telling a bunch of us on a
bus on the way to a photo safari after a Clipper conference in South Africa.
The trip was a "perk" for the speakers at that conference. It was a pretty
interesting bunch of guys...Chris, Bill French, Jud Cole, Anton ( in fact it
was on that trip that I talked Anton into releasing Classy. ( he thought
that at anytime OOPs was going to be released into the main product <g> ),
I think Dirk was there.... There was about 3 or 4 of us there from the US..

Anyway, I forget the joke but it's something about a dog who is used to hunt
game.... it chases it up a tree, bits the prey in a place I can't talk about
on this conference... but if he misses, he'll go after anyone and bite them
in the same spot <GGG>.... so the instructions to his hunting partner was
that if the dog misses and falls out of the tree.... "Shoot the dog!" <G>.

Well I guess this "genius" thought we were talking about shooting
Clipper..... I guess people will try to read anything into a message to
give them something to argue about <G>.

Al
--
Al Acker, President
Acker Consulting, Inc.
mailto:al@thexbasefiles.com
http://www.ackerconsulting.com

"Dave Pearson" <davep.news@davep.org> wrote in message
news:slrncunl2n.k5b.davep.news@hagbard.davep.org...[color=darkred]
>* dsh32@usa.com <dsh32@usa.com>:
>
>
> What do you actually mean by "shoot the dog"?
>
> --
> Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release
> functions.
> http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for
> Linux.
> http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for
> Windows.
> http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

* Al Acker <al@thexbasefiles.com>:

> Well I guess this "genius" thought we were talking about shooting
> Clipper..... [SNIP]

Indeed, I recall you mentioning this joke a couple of times (once last year
and once a couple of years back IIRC). I asked him about it to give him a
chance to explain why he thinks a not-really-told second hand joke should be
held up as evidence that your posts are nothing more than "promoting
Delphi". I'm really looking forward to reading his explanation; I'm sure you
are too.

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Dave Pearson

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

* Al Acker <al@thexbasefiles.com>:

> Anyway, I forget the joke but it's something about a dog who is used to
> hunt game.... it chases it up a tree, bits the prey in a place I can't
> talk about on this conference... but if he misses, he'll go after anyone
> and bite them in the same spot <GGG>.... so the instructions to his
> hunting partner was that if the dog misses and falls out of the tree....
> "Shoot the dog!" <G>.

<URL:http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?s...c.rochester.edu>
looks somewhat similar. Same joke, variation on a theme?

--
Dave Pearson | OSLib - Timeslice release functions.
http://www.davep.org/ | eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.davep.org/clipper/ | weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
http://www.davep.org/norton-guides/ | dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.

Al Acker

2005-01-17, 3:55 pm

Dave,
[color=darkred]

You bet I am <g>... I'll add another side note... the first part of the bus
ride was really boring so all of us just started telling jokes.... well
after everyone had told their jokes we went back to tech talk... well to
break that up, every now and then someone would just shout out the punch
line to a recently told joke...and everyone would laugh. We'll of cour