Clarion - How would you describe Clarion programming language

Author

How would you describe Clarion programming language

Piia Hietanen

2004-12-10, 8:55 am

Hello,
How would you describe Clarion programming language for someone else. I am
doing a little (full A4) lecture about Clarion programming language and i
don't know much about the enviroment or the capabilities of the software. I
was wondering what would you say about Clarion at this case.

Thank you,
Jayman

Ivo Ivanov

2004-12-10, 8:55 am

Hi Piia,

This is MHOP.
Clarion is a nice tool, but difficult one to start up. Once you know it it
is easy to do trivial things. There are many extensions of the things one
gets from the box.
The Clarion language is based on OOP and contains the feature any OOP
language has.
The purpose of Clarion is to build database applications in a RAD way.
There are some limitations though like bad IDE compared to others like... I
recently tested Eclipse and I was amazed. Other limitation is the
interfacing with ActiveX/OCX and calling external APIs.

regards,
Ivo Ivanov
Modest Automatisering B.V.
Holland

"Piia Hietanen" <jij@mom.fi> wrote in message
news:kVcud.50$8X4.37@read3.inet.fi...
> Hello,
> How would you describe Clarion programming language for someone else. I am
> doing a little (full A4) lecture about Clarion programming language and i
> don't know much about the enviroment or the capabilities of the software.
I
> was wondering what would you say about Clarion at this case.
>
> Thank you,
> Jayman
>
>

Kasper G. Christensen

2004-12-10, 8:55 am

Here are my additions and comments to Ivo's answer.

> Clarion is a nice tool, but difficult one to start up. Once you know it it
> is easy to do trivial things. There are many extensions of the things one
> gets from the box.
Agreed. One strength of Clarion, is the ability to generate code by
means of templates, and the many templates available makes it easy to do
a lot of "standard" things. It is possible to write a data dictionary
(description of your database) and have an application where you can
browse and edit all tables generated for you.

> The Clarion language is based on OOP and contains the feature any OOP
> language has.
Disagreed. Clarion contains _some_ OOP features, but isn't full blown
OOP. The thing I miss the most, is a constructor that takes parameters,
to make it possible to ensure object correctnes withour relying on the
programmer to remeber to call an init method. BTW the IDE doesn't
encourage OOP very much, the main-view is a _procedure_ tree.

> The purpose of Clarion is to build database applications in a RAD way.
Agreed, and it is a very strong tool if that is what you wan't to do.

The language itself is just another language! Good at data-manipulating,
database access and automatic type-conversion. Not so strong at OOP, but
does support it.

Best regard

Kasper
--
Besøg mig på nettet: http://www.kaspershjemmeside.dk

Earl R Coker

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

What Clarion really is:

It is a database centric language with code generating IDE,
which will basically complete 70 - 80% of your DATA
MAINTENANCE code after you designed your tables/files
in the Data Dictionary. Then the Integrated Development
Enviroment (IDE) is used to develop the UNIQUE procedures
for your application using many available templates and
CODE EMBED POINTS in the templates.

What basically is Clarion?

1) Clarion is actually an APPLICATION PROGRAMMING
language and a code generating IDE. It is designed for
easy usage while building data-intensive business
computer applications.

1)a. Clarion has one BIG difference in developing database
applications in that the Developer MUST determine what
data is to be in the database and how that data is to be
manipulated BEFORE beginning to develop the application.
This is because the FIRST thing you must develop in the
IDE are the data files/tables using the Data Dictionary Utility.

2) Clarion has an Integrated Development Environment (IDE)
which includes a data dictionary utility so you can define
all your data elements (tables) using it and then maintain
and reuse them easily. I would compare the theory behind
using Clarion's IDE to using a word processor to write a
book or using a spreadsheet application to design a
complex feature rich multi sheet/page spreadsheet.

3) Clarion has a large collection of templates including
3rd party templates. Many are free or very reasonably
priced. These templates are used as a type of code library
in the IDE and permit you to automatically generate and
EASILY MAINTAIN code generated by the templates that
is also based upon the contents of your data dictionary
and user interface window controls/prompts you can
select after initial DATA MAINTENANCE PROCEDURE
code has been generated. The templates have
"embed points" where you can - with appropriate
knowledge - override, modify and maintain the "normal"
behavior of your templates to provide extra functionality
that is needed in the application. You can also
develop applications by hand-coding in the Clarion
language or in the IDE using code, window control
or procedure extension templates.

4) The ABC templates use a set of OOP classes
(special reuseable procedures) that interface with the
templates thereby getting the benefit of REUSEABLE
CODE. ABC (Application Builder Class) templates are
OOP oriented. The Clarion templates are not OOP
oriented and are Procedure Oriented. Sometimes the
Clarion Templates are referred to as Legacy Templates
and they are used in the older Procedure Style version.
The later releases of Clarion support both styles.

Clarion supports Win32 development:

5.) A flip of the switch and you are compiling for 32-bit.
You can use any API calls. Things like COM and XML
are available as "add-ons" from Soft Velocity and 3rd party
developers.

Using some of the excellent 3rd party add-on products,
especially in the beginning, instead of fighting through
it by hand is a good idea especially for the beginner.

Clarion has native database support with it's
included set of drivers.

Natively, it supports:
ASCII, Basic, DbaseIII, dBaseIV, Clarion,
Clipper, FoxPro, Topspeed,
MS-SQL, Oracle, generic ODBC.

There are other drivers and some of them would
require either having the Enterprise Edition (EE) or
buy the drivers as an add-on to the
Professional Edition (PE) of Clarion For Windows.

Clarion for Windows Version 6.1 Gold has just recently been
released.

--
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
ksasales AT machlink DOT com
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.com/clarion.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

========================================
============================
A brief testimonial.....

There are very few people who started programming in Clarion. There are
also a fair number of Clarion developers that have had affairs with other
development tools, me included. They come back not because they didn't find
some great technology in other tools, but because the right combination of
what it takes to efficiently produce maintainable data driven applications
was not elsewhere. The very fact that Clarion has survived and grows in
relative obscurity tells you that this product's existence is not the result
of branding and refined marketing technique. The developer's here didn't
learn it in school, and it isn't the first language that they had tried.
For that reason, you can be sure that the Clarion community was founded, and
is comprised of people who were looking for something better. They could
not possibly be people with "religion" that worship brand name. If
developers here could find elsewhere what Clarion delivers, this forum and
the developers you see wouldn't be here. It also means that if you need
help from intelligent life, you can be sure that you can find it here
because if Clarion developers were average, they wouldn't be here.

Looking at what you currently use, you will find that Clarion cannot as
easily make a screen to paper reports, or drillable reports. However most
of that can be added to Clarion via 3rd party. However writing screens to
view and and maintain the data is more efficient than what you are doing
now. If you write Windows applications that have a fair amount of logic in
them, as opposed to simply reporting what is in the database, then Clarion
is by far the best tool to make maintainable programs.

I came mostly from a home built language because I couldn't buy what
worked for me. It was very much like Clarion except it sprayed C code which
I auto-compiled using Turbo C. I was also heavy into VB and Dataflex. I
also worked some in PowerBuilder, but didn't like it. I still watch these
languages for signs of progress, but I never use them on projects anymore.
I can't find a good reason to. I've written huge ERP programs in Clarion
that manage nearly every aspect of $100 million dollar companies from EDI
interface to barcode to real time machine counters to SPC to shipping to
finite scheduling. Clarion never boxes you in. I've lost most of my low
level skills over the years because I just haven't had the need to use them.

All languages take some time to learn, but few are worth the time to
learn. Clarion code is self-commenting and thus is very maintainable. It
makes it easy for you to expand and add other developers because they will
be able to understand your code. Casting is taken care of automatically by
the compiler so your code remains clean. There is just no way to adequately
convey the power of the Clarion dictionary to you. It is something that you
have to experience. If you write real data driven applications, and you
need more than just a reporting tool, Clarion will not sit on your shelf.

I emphasize again, this company wouldn't be here if it did just as good a
job as the other guy, or even a little better job than the other guy.
Clarion developers are willing to, and can swim against the brand name tide
because they can deliver better, faster, cheaper, and more profitably. Many
have attained superman status in the sight of their customers, and as
developers are no longer accustomed to, nor willing to go back to the boring
repetition of programming in their previous environments. Customers tell me
they have never heard of Clarion. The only ones that ask are the new ones.
After you deliver, they really don't care. All they know is it works better
than what their other developers are doing for them. The bottom line is
they are buying your ability to deliver solid apps.

There is no better place to start than C6.1. The guy that bought the
company from the retiring owner a couple of years ago has energy, he is a
long time Clarion developer, he is excited about Clarion, he knows how to
pick people, he knows how to cultivate team environments, he is practical,
he listens to customers, and he sets high standards for performance. C6.1
shows it, and it shows no less in the new documentation. I don't know if
they have time bomb version of C6.1 or not. Give them a call and find out.
I
predict that if you do the tutorials, and you experience Clarion's unique
model for programming data driven applications, you will look at other
languages and say, "What were all those other guys thinking? They must have
never written a real business app before." The founding owner had a saying
that still guides the company today. "If you have to code it every time,
you should never have to code it at all." See what you think on how well
they deliver on that, and ask yourself if that is the kind of thinking that
you want to see guiding your development tool vendor.

Regards,

Jack T.

========================================
===========================

Check out www.softvelocity.com and see why using anything but
Clarion is a waste time and money.

Seriously, when I first found it I was a very productive Foxpro
developer. A guy asked me to do a small job and I told him it would
take approximately 40 hours to do in Foxpro, without any reports. I had
been a dBase / Foxbase / Foxpro programmer since 1978, and custom
database structures prior to that in Basic and Z-80 Assembler so I
really knew my way around the xBase languages. He asked me if I could
do it in Clarion, I asked why. He told me it would produce royalty-free
executables. I told him I could do that with Clipper too. He told me to
try Clarion and let him know what I thought. I sat down at the machine
and went through the tutorial (this was back in the DOS days of 1989) it
took me about 20 minutes to go through the 'Getting Started' manual and
when I was through, I sat back in my chair and said "WOW"!.

I told him I would do the project in Clarion but he had to be
aware that it would be my first project in the language so not to expect
anything fancy. He said "We'll see.".

I took it home, loaded it on my computer and went through some
of the annotated examples to see how the language worked. I reminded me
a lot of DataFlex, that I had used in a project in 1984 (and I really
liked it). So I finally started in on his requested project. I did the
whole thing in 10 hours, WITH all of the reports that he wanted. I was
really impressed by then. Then, I had to write a benchmark program that
would test the aggregate throughput of dumb terminals (Wyse 60's) coming
through multi-port shared IRQ serial based controller cards. I decided
that I would write the whole thing in the "raw" Clarion language and not
use any of the code generation tools, in order to get a good feel of the
capabilities of the language. I would have normally written this sort of
thing in GW-Basic or in GW, with some assembler sub-routines. It took
me a couple of days to write it using only 3GL language statements and
that is when I truly fell in love with the language.

Why? Because it's so damned easy to write, that you can actually
come back 6 months later and understand what you did!

To date, I have found it to be the very best way to create
general business applications that require ongoing maintenance.

For example, Secure Address Book was completely generated by
wizards with the exception of approximately 5 embed points, in which I
have maybe had to use 40 lines of custom coding. Everything else is
accomplished through the use of specialized templates that provide
functions that do not normally come out of the box. Don't get me wrong,
there is tremendous functionality right out of the box, however, to do
some things you either have to write out the code (and test it) or buy a
special template that someone else has already written (or you can write
your own template for specialized functionality if you want to be able
to re-use the code in multiple applications) and tested.

To give you an example of how powerful it is, the main browse
procedure with all of the 'greenbar' effect, column sorting and locator
functionality is one browse extension template in a package known as
Handy Tools (by a company in Canada, www.cwhandy.ca) I did not have to
use a single line of code to do any of that functionality. I simply
dropped the template code on the window, set a couple of parameters for
coloring the 'greenbar', toggled a checkbox in the listbox formatter to
turn on coloring and selected from a dropdown list, the various columns
that would not be available for sorting. That's it. The functionality
to do the icon to the system tray, run once and some other minor
functions was simply a couple of check boxes and entering the name of
the icon file. The biggest section of code that I actually had to write
to do some functionality is 20 lines of code.

The whole automatic file maintenance and auto updating required
only 1 line of code in one embed.

The password routine for the login window required a total of 6
lines of code.

The registration process and demo capability requires 2 small
global templates, you fill in 6 or 7 prompts and it's done.

So you can see the tool is incredibly productive.

The 'Enterprise' edition comes with all kinds of database
drivers and extra components for doing web based applications. The cost
is about $2500.00

Don't get me wrong, the product actually does have some warts,
but far, far fewer than most of the Microsoft development tools.

Anyway, I have run on... Not sure how long this battery is going
to last so I had better sign off for now. Hopefully the power company
can come out early tomorrow and fix the problem.

Have a great night!
Ben

========================================
==================

Leroy Schulz found these some time ago, they are still valid

http://www.clarionmag.com/col/97-09-rebuttal.html
http://www.comformark.com.au/clarion.htm
http://www.harpsoftware.com/what_is_clarion.htm
http://www.artofprogramming.net/dev_clarion.html
http://www.artofprogramming.net/dev_clarion_why.html
http://www.artofprogramming.net/dev_clarion_why2.html
http://www.artofprogramming.net/dev_clarion_why3.html
http://www.clariondeveloper.com/WHY.PDF

Hope this helps....

--
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
ksasales AT machlink DOT com
kwiksys AT kwiksystems DOT net
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.com/clarion.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

========================================
==================
"Piia Hietanen" <jij@mom.fi> wrote in message
news:kVcud.50$8X4.37@read3.inet.fi...
: Hello,
: How would you describe Clarion programming language for someone else. I am
: doing a little (full A4) lecture about Clarion programming language and i
: don't know much about the enviroment or the capabilities of the software.
I
: was wondering what would you say about Clarion at this case.
:
: Thank you,
: Jayman
:
:

jamescooke_tx

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

Piia,

http://www.clarionpublisher.com/sit...c9-a0941dea6e21

If you subscribe, I will grant you access. I would like to help you
deliver in anyway you can!
Let me know
jamesBYTEMEcooke_tx@yahoo.com

yozoff@planet.nl

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

Earl,

1. Classes are not special procedures. Are you familiar with OOP?
2. One is able to read back what has written 6 months ago only if it
was written well and commented well. It is not a feature of the
programming language.
3. The way you described your way of using Clarion revealse that you
are more drag-and-drop developer using the IDE than a programmer using
the Clarion language.
4. Maybe back in the 80s it was easy and much better to do things with
Clarion, but nowadays there are other tools that are not worse.
5. Do you have linux-like OS on your PC? ... no? You have Windows... If
you don't like Microsoft and their tools why do you use Windows still?
6. It is good that the batteries do not last forever... :P
7. What is RAD about Clarion when you need to use OCX?
7.1. Is it possible, and if yes how easier it is compare to other IDEs,
to make a COM object with Clarion?
8. How about the interfacing with external DLLs? How many calling
conventions does Clarion support?
9. Have you tried SNMP with Clarion?
10....

regards,
Ivo

Earl R Coker

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

Hi Ivo,

I agree. And I don't care... Your perception is bound to be different
than mine. If you want to hand code everything then that's OK with
me. I also don't care what other systems use for OOP stuff. I am
only concerned with Clarion's "style" of OOP. <g>

The "market" that I perceive Clarion is best suited for sort of resembles
a "food chain" type of "business opportunity" situation and when looking
at the whole "market situation" for Clarion I believe it is what some would
call "market driven". e.g. driven by an already existing market created
by someone or something external to themselves. <G>

I think people that "use" Clarion fall into 3 "main" categories...
You could probably break those categories down into some
"sup-categories" but that is getting into unnecessary fine detail???

Developers:
1. Defining business rules. e.g. app functionality.
2. Designing intuitive user interfaces. (e.g. "screens")
3. Designing the database. e.g. the files, fields, relationships and keys.
4. Organizing the app's structure and "feature set" so it is follows the
"work habits" of the users.
5. Quality Assurance for the entire project including user feature requests.
6. Using what "Programmers" and "Coders" write in the IDE to do ongoing
"maintenance" of the application(s).
7. Writing or supervising the writing of the documentation.

Programmers:
1. Writing hand coded procedures, templates, classes etc...
(e.g. The 4/5GL w/IDE) Developers and some Programmers use.
2. Writing "embed code" in the case of CW for "unique" application needs.
3. Writing special procedures to handle such things as unique "screen
functionality" and unique data manipulation.
4. Using what Coders write.

Coders:
1. Experts at writing the stuff Programmers use such as the Clarion Language
itself with C++ or whatever.
2. Using what the C++ people developed.

IMNSHO, a FEW people can do all 3, some can do 2 and most can only do 1 of
the above "really" well.

FWIW
--
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
ksasales AT machlink DOT com
kwiksys AT kwiksystems DOT net
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.com/clarion.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

<yozoff@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:1102692728.712137.260080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
: Earl,
:
: 1. Classes are not special procedures. Are you familiar with OOP?
: 2. One is able to read back what has written 6 months ago only if it
: was written well and commented well. It is not a feature of the
: programming language.
: 3. The way you described your way of using Clarion revealse that you
: are more drag-and-drop developer using the IDE than a programmer using
: the Clarion language.
: 4. Maybe back in the 80s it was easy and much better to do things with
: Clarion, but nowadays there are other tools that are not worse.
: 5. Do you have linux-like OS on your PC? ... no? You have Windows... If
: you don't like Microsoft and their tools why do you use Windows still?
: 6. It is good that the batteries do not last forever... :P
: 7. What is RAD about Clarion when you need to use OCX?
: 7.1. Is it possible, and if yes how easier it is compare to other IDEs,
: to make a COM object with Clarion?
: 8. How about the interfacing with external DLLs? How many calling
: conventions does Clarion support?
: 9. Have you tried SNMP with Clarion?
: 10....
:
: regards,
: Ivo
:

Brad Kunkel

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

"Piia Hietanen" <jij@mom.fi> wrote in message
news:kVcud.50$8X4.37@read3.inet.fi...
> Hello,
> How would you describe Clarion programming language for someone else. I am
> doing a little (full A4) lecture about Clarion programming language and i
> don't know much about the enviroment or the capabilities of the software.
> I
> was wondering what would you say about Clarion at this case.
>
> Thank you,
> Jayman
>

Piia,

If you want to get a huge amount of input, post this message on the
comp.lang.clarion newsgroup on news.softvelocity.com. There are two
comp.lang.clarion groups -- this one and the one mentioned above which has
far more subscribers. That said, I use Clarion all the time and think it's
great. However, I haven't upgraded yet to the new version 6 because it's
not stable enough for me at this time. I only write business applications
so my view is probably narrower than some of the other people that responded
to your question.

Clarion has a steep learning curve if you want to write a full-featured
application. The language itself is not hard to learn; it's basically a
procedural language with OOP extensions. What makes it hard is Clarion's
three levels of depth for producing code.

The most fundamental level is the language itself and if you just hand-code
everything this would be like working in most other products. At this level
you can use the Window designer and Report designer then code all the other
functionality. In the Clarion IDE this is called a Hand-Coded Project.
With this approach all the program modules are tied together with a Project
file (.PRJ).

The second level is a Clarion Application where the entire program source is
stored (or you could say "described") in an Application file (.APP). This
level also uses a Dictionary file (.DCT) where all your file layouts and
global variables are stored. This is the default level when you first start
using the program. When you create a Clarion APP the system writes the
program for you using templates. The programmer then customizes the
generated code by inserting program code in embed points. This is where it
gets hard. You have to learn the embed points in order to make things work
correctly. And to learn the embed points, the programmer has to learn what
the templates generate and understand it. Once you get it, however, this
approach to programming produces very consistent code.

The third level is Clarion templates which write code for you. The code
produced in the second level is done by templates but you can also write
your own (or modify theirs). There are many add-on templates available for
just about any kind of functionality needed. Once a programmer starts
creating templates, even their embedded code becomes completely consistent
across all modules and applications they write.

Clarion has a couple of features that are really outstanding. First of all
it has Queues built into the language. I find this indispensable for
manipulating working data in memory. It also has native support for several
database formats including ODBC which covers almost everything these days.

Some people complain because the IDE is still 16-bit but I haven't run into
any problems with it and it produces 32-bit applications just fine.

HTH,
Brad Kunkel
Integrated Business, Inc.

Ivo Ivanov

2004-12-13, 8:55 am

I totally agree with you!

Ivo

"Earl R Coker" <ksasales AT machlink DOT com> schreef in bericht
news:10rjmtqo133k02c@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Ivo,
>
> I agree. And I don't care... Your perception is bound to be different
> than mine. If you want to hand code everything then that's OK with
> me. I also don't care what other systems use for OOP stuff. I am
> only concerned with Clarion's "style" of OOP. <g>
>
> The "market" that I perceive Clarion is best suited for sort of resembles
> a "food chain" type of "business opportunity" situation and when looking
> at the whole "market situation" for Clarion I believe it is what some
would
> call "market driven". e.g. driven by an already existing market created
> by someone or something external to themselves. <G>
>
> I think people that "use" Clarion fall into 3 "main" categories...
> You could probably break those categories down into some
> "sup-categories" but that is getting into unnecessary fine detail???
>
> Developers:
> 1. Defining business rules. e.g. app functionality.
> 2. Designing intuitive user interfaces. (e.g. "screens")
> 3. Designing the database. e.g. the files, fields, relationships and keys.
> 4. Organizing the app's structure and "feature set" so it is follows the
> "work habits" of the users.
> 5. Quality Assurance for the entire project including user feature
requests.
> 6. Using what "Programmers" and "Coders" write in the IDE to do ongoing
> "maintenance" of the application(s).
> 7. Writing or supervising the writing of the documentation.
>
> Programmers:
> 1. Writing hand coded procedures, templates, classes etc...
> (e.g. The 4/5GL w/IDE) Developers and some Programmers use.
> 2. Writing "embed code" in the case of CW for "unique" application needs.
> 3. Writing special procedures to handle such things as unique "screen
> functionality" and unique data manipulation.
> 4. Using what Coders write.
>
> Coders:
> 1. Experts at writing the stuff Programmers use such as the Clarion
Language
> itself with C++ or whatever.
> 2. Using what the C++ people developed.
>
> IMNSHO, a FEW people can do all 3, some can do 2 and most can only do 1 of
> the above "really" well.
>
> FWIW
> --
> Best Regards,
> Earl R Coker
> ksasales AT machlink DOT com
> kwiksys AT kwiksystems DOT net
> www.kwiksystems.net
> www.kwiksystems.com
> www.kwiksystems.com/clarion.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)
>
> <yozoff@planet.nl> wrote in message
> news:1102692728.712137.260080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> : Earl,
> :
> : 1. Classes are not special procedures. Are you familiar with OOP?
> : 2. One is able to read back what has written 6 months ago only if it
> : was written well and commented well. It is not a feature of the
> : programming language.
> : 3. The way you described your way of using Clarion revealse that you
> : are more drag-and-drop developer using the IDE than a programmer using
> : the Clarion language.
> : 4. Maybe back in the 80s it was easy and much better to do things with
> : Clarion, but nowadays there are other tools that are not worse.
> : 5. Do you have linux-like OS on your PC? ... no? You have Windows... If
> : you don't like Microsoft and their tools why do you use Windows still?
> : 6. It is good that the batteries do not last forever... :P
> : 7. What is RAD about Clarion when you need to use OCX?
> : 7.1. Is it possible, and if yes how easier it is compare to other IDEs,
> : to make a COM object with Clarion?
> : 8. How about the interfacing with external DLLs? How many calling
> : conventions does Clarion support?
> : 9. Have you tried SNMP with Clarion?
> : 10....
> :
> : regards,
> : Ivo
> :
>
>

Ivo Ivanov

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

Ivo Ivanov

2004-12-18, 12:46 pm

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