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the target audience of this list
|
|
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| hi there,
over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some non-standard C
headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few days i have noticed
that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.
is now know this newsgroup is a "C Standard Library" newsgroup, rather than a
"general questions about C" list. it took me a few days to realise this... and i
will therefore not bother the list again unless i have a stdlib question. to me
it seemed that a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be about general C
questions, and an entirely standards lib newsgroup would have the name
"comp.lang.c.iso"
however, i was very puzzled for a while as the FAQ
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/faq.html
does not mention anything about the kinds of questions which should be asked on
this newsgroup.
perhaps it would be a good idea for someone to mention at the top of the FAQ
that the correct topics for this list include only stdlib/iso ones.
cheers
| |
| Ben Pfaff 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> writes:
> over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some non-standard C
> headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few days i have noticed
> that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.
For what it's worth, this is a "newsgroup", not a "list".
> is now know this newsgroup is a "C Standard Library" newsgroup, rather than a
> "general questions about C" list. it took me a few days to realise this... and i
> will therefore not bother the list again unless i have a stdlib question.
We discuss the standard C language here, which includes the
standard C library.
> to me it seemed that a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be
> about general C questions, and an entirely standards lib
> newsgroup would have the name "comp.lang.c.iso"
*shrug* You're wrong. Why didn't you follow common Usenet
courtesy and try reading the newsgroup for a while before
posting?
> however, i was very puzzled for a while as the FAQ
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/faq.html
> does not mention anything about the kinds of questions which should be asked on
> this newsgroup.
>
> perhaps it would be a good idea for someone to mention at the top of the FAQ
> that the correct topics for this list include only stdlib/iso ones.
You're welcome to suggest it to the FAQ maintainer, but he's not
going to do it.
--
Here's a tip: null pointers don't have to be *dull* pointers!
| |
| jacob navia 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| This is the view of some people in this list.
Others, like me, consider that this group is not only about ISO C.
I think that general questions about C do belong in this group even if
they are not mentioned in the standard ISO C document.
For instance I think that the non-standard function "alloca" is well
within the scope of this group. Other people say that since it is not
in ISO C it can't be discussed here.
Note that this is an unmoderated newsgroup so that you can post
anything you want.
| |
| Emmanuel Delahaye 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| In 'comp.lang.c', Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote:
> over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some
> non-standard C headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few
> days i have noticed that this was not the correct place to ask such
> questions.
>
> is now know this newsgroup is a "C Standard Library" newsgroup, rather
> than a "general questions about C" list.
Actually it's simply the C-language goup. The C language is defined by a
standard. The other flavours (Turbo C, Lattice C, Microsoft C, GNU C, etc.)
are not part of the standard and are not discussed here but rather on the
relevant groups. As simple as that.
--
-ed- get my email here: http://marreduspam.com/ad672570
The C-language FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
C-reference: http://www.dinkumware.com/manuals/reader.aspx?lib=c99
FAQ de f.c.l.c : http://www.isty-info.uvsq.fr/~rumeau/fclc/
| |
| Mabden 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| "Sam Halliday" <email@example.com> wrote in message
news:20040713170512.25e35125@localhost...
> hi there,
>
> over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some
non-standard C
> headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few days i have
noticed
> that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.
If you don't already know the answer, you'd be better off banging your head
against the wall...
| |
| Mark A. Odell 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| "jacob navia" <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote in
news:cd1462$n8e$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr:
> This is the view of some people in this list.
>
> Others, like me, consider that this group is not only about ISO C.
>
> I think that general questions about C do belong in this group even if
> they are not mentioned in the standard ISO C document.
>
> For instance I think that the non-standard function "alloca" is well
> within the scope of this group. Other people say that since it is not
> in ISO C it can't be discussed here.
Why, it doesn't exist in almost all my ANSI C cross-compilers. It wouldn't
be fair to discuss such function, would it? The world does write C
programs for Unix and Linux exclusively.
--
- Mark ->
--
| |
| Keith Thompson 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> writes:
[...]
> however, i was very puzzled for a while as the FAQ
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/faq.html
> does not mention anything about the kinds of questions which should
> be asked on this newsgroup.
>
> perhaps it would be a good idea for someone to mention at the top of
> the FAQ that the correct topics for this list include only
> stdlib/iso ones.
Steve Summit's FAQ is more about the C language than about the
comp.lang.c newsgroup.
James Hu has been posting a "Welcome to comp.lang.c!" message that
covers what's appropriate for the newsgroup. I haven't yet read it
closely enough to evalute it; assuming it's reasonable, it might be
good for Steve's FAQ page to include a pointer to a copy of James Hu's
welcome message.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
| |
| Arthur J. O'Dwyer 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
|
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Mark A. Odell wrote:
>
> "jacob navia" <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote...
>
> Why, it doesn't exist in almost all my ANSI C cross-compilers. It wouldn't
> be fair to discuss such function, would it? The world does write C
> programs for Unix and Linux exclusively.
s/does/does not/
And what does 'alloca' have to do with Unix or Linux? I write C
code for Linux systems (and Windows, and DOS, and...), and I have
no idea what 'alloca' is supposed to do. Nor do I care. Because
my implementations of the standard C language do not supply such
a function. (Now 'strdup', on the other hand... ;)
This shows exactly the reason we don't discuss off-topic stuff here.
It's useless to the majority of participants, and it's often wrong,
to boot. If you want to know about the effects of gamma rays on
Microsoft systems, then ask in comp.ms.gamma-rays. Here in comp.lang.c,
we discuss only the language C, and I for one like it that way.
-Arthur
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Ben Pfaff wrote:
>
> *shrug* You're wrong. Why didn't you follow common Usenet
> courtesy and try reading the newsgroup for a while before
> posting?
yes, i know i was wrong... thats why i am asking someone to state clearly what
the goal of this newsgroup is... so other people like myself don't waste their
time and your time by asking off topic questions.
oh and excuse me if reading the FAQ, spending a few hours on google and other
relevant website (trying find a solution before posting) and checking to see if
there are any other newsgroup which might be more suitable... isn't enough for
you. i guess next time i have an urgent question i'll just follow your advise
and read the newsgroup for a few days beforehand in the hope that i am not going
to get flamed! come on... be realistic. a single sentence somewhere at the top
of the FAQ explaining what the newsgroup is aimed it isn't too much to ask.
>
> You're welcome to suggest it to the FAQ maintainer, but he's not
> going to do it.
what makes you think that?
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Emmanuel Delahaye wrote:
> Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> Actually it's simply the C-language goup. The C language is defined by a
> standard. The other flavours (Turbo C, Lattice C, Microsoft C, GNU C, etc.)
> are not part of the standard and are not discussed here but rather on the
> relevant groups. As simple as that.
yeah, but the point i am trying to make is that this newsgroup is not a "general
questions about C" group, which it may easily be mistaken for. so the topic of
conversation should be mentioned somewhere, preferably the FAQ.
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Mabden wrote:
> Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> If you don't already know the answer, you'd be better off banging your head
> against the wall...
? :-/ ?
i don't get your meaning...
| |
| jacob navia 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
|
"Arthur J. O'Dwyer" <ajo@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> a écrit dans le message de
news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0407131355310.7354@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
>
> And what does 'alloca' have to do with Unix or Linux? I write C
> code for Linux systems (and Windows, and DOS, and...), and I have
> no idea what 'alloca' is supposed to do. Nor do I care. Because
> my implementations of the standard C language do not supply such
> a function. (Now 'strdup', on the other hand... ;)
All linux compilers and windows compilers supply alloca.
Now, if you do not want to use it, it is your choice.
Why impose such a choice to others?
| |
| Ben Pfaff 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> writes:
>
> what makes you think that?
Because it's been suggested before and he hasn't.
--
"I ran it on my DeathStation 9000 and demons flew out of my nose." --Kaz
| |
| Kieran Simkin 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| "Sam Halliday" <email@example.com> wrote in message
news:20040713191029.2893bcb3@localhost...
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>
> yes, i know i was wrong... thats why i am asking someone to state clearly
what
> the goal of this newsgroup is... so other people like myself don't waste
their
> time and your time by asking off topic questions.
>
I think the meaning of "comp.lang.c" is quite clear - the standard libraries
are part of the language (because they're distributed with virtually every C
compiler available), MFC (for example) is not (because it is not). If you
start including other people's libraries in the scope of this newsgroup,
where do you draw the line? There must be literally hundreds of thousands of
C libraries available, and in comparison the readership of this group is
quite small. If you allow everything, the newsgroup will be flooded with
questions nobody can answer or questions badly answered by people who don't
really know what they're talking about.
This seems like common sense to me without even needing to read the FAQ, I
fail to see why it's not obvious to everyone else.
> oh and excuse me if reading the FAQ, spending a few hours on google and
other
> relevant website (trying find a solution before posting) and checking to
see if
> there are any other newsgroup which might be more suitable... isn't enough
for
> you. i guess next time i have an urgent question i'll just follow your
advise
If you have an urgent question, don't rely on usenet for your answers. In
fact, don't rely on usenet.
> and read the newsgroup for a few days beforehand in the hope that i am not
going
> to get flamed! come on... be realistic. a single sentence somewhere at the
top
> of the FAQ explaining what the newsgroup is aimed it isn't too much to
ask.
Maybe, maybe not.
>
the FAQ[color=darkred]
>
> what makes you think that?
| |
| Martin Ambuhl 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday wrote:
> hi there,
>
> over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some non-standard C
> headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few days i have noticed
> that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.
>
> is now know this newsgroup is a "C Standard Library" newsgroup, rather than a
> "general questions about C" list.
This is a misunderstanding on your part. "General questions about C"
are about, amazingly, C. They are not about your operating system or
your third-party libraries. They are not about algorithms that have
nothing to do with the language used. They are not about
characteristics of you hardware.
> it took me a few days to realise this...
And you still don't get it.
> and i
> will therefore not bother the list again unless i have a stdlib question.
There are many standard library functions for which <stdlib.h> is the
wrong header and there are many aspects to C that have nothing to do
with the library. There is no newsgroup with the narrow focus you
incorrectly claim for clc.
> to me
> it seemed that a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be about general C
> questions, and an entirely standards lib newsgroup would have the name
> "comp.lang.c.iso"
Tell us what you think C is, if not the C language as defined by its
defining documents. You have this exactly backwards in your implication
that the focus is too narrow: insisting that your little world defines
C sets the narrow target.
| |
| Martin Ambuhl 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> yeah, but the point i am trying to make is that this newsgroup is not a "general
> questions about C" group,
And you are wrong. You want to discuss questions that are *not* about
C. Grow up.
| |
| Dave Vandervies 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| In article <cd19cj$oue$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>,
jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
>All linux compilers and windows compilers supply alloca.
Really? So is it gcc or uname that's lying to me here?
--------
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ cat foo.c
/*There's a man page that claims alloca is declared in stdlib.h, so this
is a best-guess about how to get it.
*/
#include <stdlib.h>
int main(void)
{
alloca();
return 0;
}
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ gcc -W -Wall -ansi -pedantic -O foo.c
foo.c: In function `main':
foo.c:8: warning: implicit declaration of function `alloca'
/tmp/ccn8UpcR.o: In function `main':
/tmp/ccn8UpcR.o(.text+0x4): undefined reference to `alloca'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (1) $ gcc --version
egcs-2.91.66
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ uname -a
Linux hct-cvs 2.2.16 #9 Thu Mar 13 16:55:23 EST 2003 i586 unknown
dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $
--------
gcc claims it doesn't have a declaration for alloca, the linker claims
it can't find it in the library, and uname claims that I'm running Linux
(which you say necessarily supports it).
I'm inclined to think that it's you, and not the programs I'm running,
that's mistaken.
dave
--
Dave Vandervies dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
There is no possible way that CHAR_MIN can be 255, and certainly no way
that CHAR_MIN can exceed 255.
--Ben Pfaff in comp.lang.c
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 3:55 pm |
| Keith Thompson wrote:
> James Hu has been posting a "Welcome to comp.lang.c!" message that
> covers what's appropriate for the newsgroup. I haven't yet read it
> closely enough to evalute it; assuming it's reasonable, it might be
> good for Steve's FAQ page to include a pointer to a copy of James Hu's
> welcome message.
well, that sounds like a good idea :-)
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 8:55 pm |
| Martin Ambuhl wrote:
> Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> And you are wrong. You want to discuss questions that are *not* about
> C. Grow up.
i asked about the existence of a .h file; i'd say that was a question about C.
jesus... you are all awful touchy on this newsgroup, aren't you?
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 8:55 pm |
| Martin Ambuhl wrote:
> your little world
you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
misfortune to come across.
| |
| Keith Thompson 2004-07-13, 8:55 pm |
| dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Vandervies) writes:
> In article <cd19cj$oue$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>,
> jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Really? So is it gcc or uname that's lying to me here?
> --------
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ cat foo.c
> /*There's a man page that claims alloca is declared in stdlib.h, so this
> is a best-guess about how to get it.
> */
Perhaps the man page is incorrect (or perhaps you're misreading it).
On several systems I've just checked, alloca() is declared in
<alloca.h>. (It *can't* be declared in <stdlib.h> if the compiler is
invoked in conforming mode.)
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
| |
| jacob navia 2004-07-13, 8:55 pm |
|
"Dave Vandervies" <dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> a écrit dans le message de
news:cd1d14$8d0$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca...
> In article <cd19cj$oue$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>,
> jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Really? So is it gcc or uname that's lying to me here?
> --------
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ cat foo.c
> /*There's a man page that claims alloca is declared in stdlib.h, so this
> is a best-guess about how to get it.
> */
> #include <stdlib.h>
>
> int main(void)
> {
> alloca();
>
> return 0;
> }
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ gcc -W -Wall -ansi -pedantic -O foo.c
> foo.c: In function `main':
> foo.c:8: warning: implicit declaration of function `alloca'
> /tmp/ccn8UpcR.o: In function `main':
> /tmp/ccn8UpcR.o(.text+0x4): undefined reference to `alloca'
> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (1) $ gcc --version
> egcs-2.91.66
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $ uname -a
> Linux hct-cvs 2.2.16 #9 Thu Mar 13 16:55:23 EST 2003 i586 unknown
> dave@hct-cvs:~/clc (0) $
> --------
>
> gcc claims it doesn't have a declaration for alloca, the linker claims
> it can't find it in the library, and uname claims that I'm running Linux
> (which you say necessarily supports it).
>
> I'm inclined to think that it's you, and not the programs I'm running,
> that's mistaken.
>
>
> dave
WHAT???
Yours system is misconfigured.
[root@gateway backups]# cat alloca.c
#include <stdlib.h>
int main(void)
{
alloca(89);
return 0;
}
[root@gateway backups]# gcc alloca.c
[root@gateway backups]#
If I take out the "89" gcc will complain:
alloca.c:5: too few arguments to function `__builtin_alloca'
| |
| Kieran Simkin 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| "Sam Halliday" <email@example.com> wrote in message
news:20040713213555.7cf4b775@localhost...
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
a[color=darkred]
>
> i asked about the existence of a .h file; i'd say that was a question
about C.
> jesus... you are all awful touchy on this newsgroup, aren't you?
Yes.
You're welcome to go elsewhere.
| |
| Joona I Palaste 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> scribbled the following:
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
[color=darkred]
> i asked about the existence of a .h file; i'd say that was a question about C.
> jesus... you are all awful touchy on this newsgroup, aren't you?
The question "is there such a header file in C?" is about C. The answer
to the particular question you asked is no. Your implementation might
provide one, though.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"Bad things only happen to scoundrels."
- Moominmamma
| |
| jacob navia 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| He called gcc with -ansi
This means all built-in functions will not be recognized.
Of course he doesn't find it!
| |
| Jens.Toerring@physik.fu-berlin.de 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote:
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
[color=darkred]
> you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded
> questions. i hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i
> have ever had the misfortune to come across.
What do you want? You got the answer regarding iso-something headers
you were asking for (even twice), and as a bonus even some slightly
off-topic, but of course correct (since it came from Mr. Plauger)
answer where you find the necessary information to cobble together
your own header file. Also your other question regarding returning
some printable forms of characters was answered in a friendly way.
That's as far as I can see your posting history here since the end
of January this year. So where do you get that "most unfriendly
newsgroup" from? Because no-one did your homework for you but were
told that what you're looking for (standard iso-something headers/
specialized print function) does not exist and you have to write
it yourself?
What many people here do not react favorably to is when newbies
start whining about getting told that something is off-topic just
because they, for whatever reasons, try to write a program in
something they assume to be C. All they would have to do is, as
they are supposed to so anyway (ever heard of netiquette?), to
scan a few days worth of postings before posting themselves -
that's a rule that holds for all newsgroups, not just clc. And
that does not take days - every useful newsserver will keep
postings for at least a w . Everybody not completely illiterate
will find out in a matter of minutes what's off-topic and, since
that whole thing gets rehashed every few days, even why. It also
will, at least for most topics, tell them where there is a better
group to ask - for example comp.programming, comp.unix.programmer
or several MS groups get mentioned usually several times a day.
But if you aren't prepared to take that much time why do you assume
that at least several dozends of other people (just a very conser-
vative guess) should take the time to read your question and than
be even bothered to try to answer it?
Regards, Jens
--
\ Jens Thoms Toerring ___ Jens.Toerring@physik.fu-berlin.de
\__________________________ http://www.toerring.de
| |
| Default User 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>
> you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
> hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
> misfortune to come across.
We get pretty tired of this, "I'm new here but I'm going to lecture you
long-time members about what your topicality SHOULD be."
Brian Rodenborn
| |
| Alan Balmer 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:39:50 +0000 (UTC), Sam Halliday
<email@example.com> wrote:
>Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>
>you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
>hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
>misfortune to come across.
Not only that, we'll give you a hard time about your shift key not
working.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| Jens.Toerring@physik.fu-berlin.de wrote:
> What do you want? You got the answer regarding iso-something headers
> you were asking for (even twice), and as a bonus even some slightly
> off-topic, but of course correct (since it came from Mr. Plauger)
> answer where you find the necessary information to cobble together
> your own header file. Also your other question regarding returning
> some printable forms of characters was answered in a friendly way.
> That's as far as I can see your posting history here since the end
> of January this year. So where do you get that "most unfriendly
> newsgroup" from?
oh i thought the answers were great... i even admit my questions were off topic
(since i could not find a description of relevant questions)
however... being told to "grow up", i find exceptionally unfriendly. do you not?
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-13, 8:56 pm |
| Default User wrote:
> We get pretty tired of this, "I'm new here but I'm going to lecture you
> long-time members about what your topicality SHOULD be."
but thats not what i was saying... i was saying "i now realise what your topic
is... but it is not obvious and it should be in the FAQ."
i never excepted the topic of this newsgroup to change.
| |
| Rouben Rostamian 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| In article <20040713170512.25e35125@localhost>,
Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote:
>to me
>it seemed that a newsgroup titled "comp.lang.c" would be about general C
>questions, and an entirely standards lib newsgroup would have the name
>"comp.lang.c.iso"
In the best of all worlds, this newsgroup would have been called
comp.lang.c.iso.
That has been suggested before. Unfortunately there is not much
support for that change.
The result is that about 90 percent of this newsgroup's articles
revolve on issues of topicality which degenerate frequently into a
let's-beat-up-the-newbie orgy. The cynic in me suspects that some
of the regulars derive a good dose of pleasure by engaging in such
practice.
So, that's the way things are. No one said that we live in the best
of all worlds.
--
rr
| |
| Jens.Toerring@physik.fu-berlin.de 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote:
> oh i thought the answers were great... i even admit my questions were off topic
> (since i could not find a description of relevant questions)
> however... being told to "grow up", i find exceptionally unfriendly. do you not?
Well, if that's the worst you get in a newgroup, you should count your
blessings, I have seen much worse. At least it shows someone is quite
optimistic about your prospects - or you already 7'10";-)
Regards, Jens
--
\ Jens Thoms Toerring ___ Jens.Toerring@physik.fu-berlin.de
\__________________________ http://www.toerring.de
| |
| E. Robert Tisdale 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Alan Balmer wrote:
> Sam Halliday wrote:
>
>
> Not only that,
> we'll give you a hard time about your shift key not working.
No.
You should *not* give new subscribers a hard time
because their shift keys are not working.
You should ignore punctuation, spelling and grammar errors.
If they really bother you, fix them quietly
to reflect *your* understanding of what was written.
| |
| Old Wolf 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote:
> Emmanuel Delahaye wrote:
> yeah, but the point i am trying to make is that this newsgroup is not
> a "general questions about C" group, which it may easily be mistaken for.
Yes it is. You have been asking questions that are not about C.
It would be like posting on alt.usage.english asking "how do I drift
a Honda?", and expecting it to be on-topic because you wrote it in
the English language.
There are plenty of other newsgroups that are dedicated to specific
platforms. And anything that doesn't fit into something specific
can go in comp.programming. I wouldn't mind seeing a group where
'alloca' etc. is ontopic (eg: comp.lang.c.nonstandard), but I'm
not going to get my knickers in a twist if there isn't.
BTW you seem quite aggro: when people say 'that is offtopic' you should
not take it personally (they did not say 'you are stupid', for example).
| |
| Keith Thompson 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisdale@jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
[...]
> You should *not* give new subscribers a hard time
> because their shift keys are not working.
> You should ignore punctuation, spelling and grammar errors.
> If they really bother you, fix them quietly
> to reflect *your* understanding of what was written.
No. If you're quoting a previous article, quote it exactly. Changing
the formatting so it fits in 72 columns is acceptable; quietly
"fixing" punctuation, spelling, or grammatical errors is not. If it's
so bad that you feel you have to fix it, say so (a simple "typos
corrected" should suffice).
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
| |
| E. Robert Tisdale 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Keith Thompson wrote:
> If you're quoting a previous article, quote it exactly.
No. That's as bad as top posting.
Subscribers should consult the original post
or the archives at Google Groups
http://groups.google.com/
if they need to know exactly what was written.
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Old Wolf wrote:
> BTW you seem quite aggro: when people say 'that is offtopic' you should
> not take it personally (they did not say 'you are stupid', for example).
i never got annoyed at people saying i was off topic... i even freely admit i
was off topic. (i DO however get annoyed when people tell me to grow up.)
why does everyone all of a sudden think i want to change the topic of this
newsgroup? i don't! and i never said i wanted to do that. all i said was "maybe
the FAQ should have a sentence at the top explaining what IS on topic". sheesh!
| |
| Jack Klein 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:39:26 GMT, "Kieran Simkin"
<kieran@digital-crocus.com> wrote in comp.lang.c:
> "Sam Halliday" <email@example.com> wrote in message
> news:20040713191029.2893bcb3@localhost...
> what
> their
>
> I think the meaning of "comp.lang.c" is quite clear - the standard libraries
> are part of the language (because they're distributed with virtually every C
> compiler available), MFC (for example) is not (because it is not).
You *almost* had it right with that sentence above.
The name comp.lang.c stands for "computer language C". There is no
rational dispute about the definition of the C computer language, it
is spelled out ISO/IEC 9899, ratified by the national standards bodies
of participating countries.
The standard libraries are part of the language because they are
defined by the C language standard, and they are required to be
available to all conforming hosted implementations.
Not all of the standard library ships with many embedded compilers,
which still may be conforming free-standing implementations.
But the 'standard-ness', and therefore topicality in this group, come
from the fact that they are literally defined by the standard, not by
what compilers they ship with.
--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~.../FAQ-acllc.html
| |
| Kieran Simkin 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| "Jack Klein" <jackklein@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:o079f090igc24mllsk9bb5hjol9eu143na@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:39:26 GMT, "Kieran Simkin"
> <kieran@digital-crocus.com> wrote in comp.lang.c:
>
clearly[color=darkred]
waste[color=darkred]
libraries[color=darkred]
every C[color=darkred]
>
> You *almost* had it right with that sentence above.
>
> The name comp.lang.c stands for "computer language C". There is no
> rational dispute about the definition of the C computer language, it
> is spelled out ISO/IEC 9899, ratified by the national standards bodies
> of participating countries.
>
> The standard libraries are part of the language because they are
> defined by the C language standard, and they are required to be
> available to all conforming hosted implementations.
>
> Not all of the standard library ships with many embedded compilers,
> which still may be conforming free-standing implementations.
>
> But the 'standard-ness', and therefore topicality in this group, come
> from the fact that they are literally defined by the standard, not by
> what compilers they ship with.
Having lurked on this group a while I'm aware that it is of course the
standard which defines what's part of the language and what's not. What I
was really trying to do in my post was explain the logic that I followed in
my mind as a newbie to arrive at the conclusion that non-standard libraries
are off-topic (before even consulting the FAQ). I should have made clear
that while this resulted in the correct conclusion, it wasn't for the
correct reason - I should also have noted the real reason as you have done
above.
Thanks for pointing this out :)
>
> --
> Jack Klein
> Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
> FAQs for
> comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
> comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
> alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
> http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~.../FAQ-acllc.html
| |
| Keith Thompson 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisdale@jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>
> No. That's as bad as top posting.
> Subscribers should consult the original post
> or the archives at Google Groups
>
> http://groups.google.com/
>
> if they need to know exactly what was written.
Perhaps I was unclear.
It's not necessary to quote the entire article to which you're
replying. But whatever portions you do quote should be quoted exactly
(apart from any semantically significant reformatting that might be
necessary to make the quoted text fit in N columns (typically N==72)).
If you feel that you must correct any spelling, punctuation, or
grammatical errors in quoted text, you should make it clear that
you've done so; as I said earlier, a simple "typos corrected" should
be sufficient. But even that is seldom necessary, as long as the
quoted text, errors and all, is reasonably legible.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
| |
| James Hu 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote in message news:<ln8ydnokt7.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>...
> Sam Halliday <email@example.com> writes:
> [...]
>
> Steve Summit's FAQ is more about the C language than about the
> comp.lang.c newsgroup.
>
> James Hu has been posting a "Welcome to comp.lang.c!" message that
> covers what's appropriate for the newsgroup. I haven't yet read it
> closely enough to evalute it; assuming it's reasonable, it might be
> good for Steve's FAQ page to include a pointer to a copy of James Hu's
> welcome message.
Well, it's not really *mine*. Blame Billy. I decided that it
needed to be resurrected though, to avoid this very kind of
thread... (*sigh*)
As to the original poster's question, while the C-faq does not
specifically address comp.lang.c's charter (this newsgroup was
created before newsgroup charters were required), the answer to
question 19.1 provides strong hints as to what is considered to
be on topic here.
-- James
[doh-fah-doh-so] C-faq inside! With Hyper-Threading!
| |
| Randy Howard 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| In article <Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0407131355310.7354@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu>,
ajo@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu says...
> And what does 'alloca' have to do with Unix or Linux? I write C
> code for Linux systems (and Windows, and DOS, and...), and I have
> no idea what 'alloca' is supposed to do. Nor do I care.
Also important in this regard, there is no guarantee that alloca() on
one compiler will do what you expect, but on the next one you port to
alloca() might be the platform-specific method for formatting the
boot file system and initializing to 0xAAFF repeating...
Since it isn't standard, it *might* do anything.
Odds are it won't happen, but there is no guarantee.
--
Randy Howard
To reply, remove FOOBAR.
| |
| Randy Howard 2004-07-14, 3:55 am |
| In article <20040713213930.219e7a78@localhost>, email@example.com says...
> Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>
> you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
> hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
> misfortune to come across.
You really, really, need to check out alt.flame then.
:-)
--
Randy Howard
To reply, remove FOOBAR.
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-14, 3:55 pm |
| In <lnwu17vdes.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>dj3vande@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Vandervies) writes:
>
>Perhaps the man page is incorrect (or perhaps you're misreading it).
>On several systems I've just checked, alloca() is declared in
><alloca.h>. (It *can't* be declared in <stdlib.h> if the compiler is
>invoked in conforming mode.)
And if you include <alloca.h> you automatically invoke undefined
behaviour.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-14, 3:55 pm |
| In <20040713170512.25e35125@localhost> Sam Halliday <email@example.com> writes:
>over the last few days i have posted a few questions about some non-standard C
>headers/functions. from being on the list in the last few days i have noticed
>that this was not the correct place to ask such questions.
Newcomers are *still* required to lurk for a few days *before* posting
for the first time. Had you done so, you wouldn't have missed the
"Welcome to c.l.c" post that explains the purpose of the newsgroup.
Don't blame others for your failure to comply to Usenet etiquette
standards.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-14, 3:56 pm |
| In <cd1j3o$8al$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr> "jacob navia" <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:
>He called gcc with -ansi
>
>This means all built-in functions will not be recognized.
>
>Of course he doesn't find it!
In other words, he invoked gcc as a C compiler and *not* as a GNU C
compiler. He should be spanked, right? ;-)
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-14, 3:56 pm |
| In <cd1462$n8e$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr> "jacob navia" <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:
>This is the view of some people in this list.
>
>Others, like me, consider that this group is not only about ISO C.
Agreed, K&R C is still topical, as well as ANSI C and pre-ANSI C.
However, most regulars consider C89/C90 as the default context for the
questions that don't mention any C flavour. Likewise, only conforming
hosted implementations are considered is answers, by default. But there
is nothing preventing the OP from changing the default context to another
topical context, e.g. "I cannot use sprintf because my freestanding
implementation doesn't provide it".
>I think that general questions about C do belong in this group even if
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>they are not mentioned in the standard ISO C document.
Indeed, as long as they are "general questions about C", as you write
about.
>For instance I think that the non-standard function "alloca" is well
>within the scope of this group.
Now, you're contradicting yourself: a question about alloca is NOT a
"general question about C", unless you can prove that *each and every*
conforming hosted implementation supports this function, with *identical*
semantics. And the only way to prove this is by finding the function in
the C standard...
>Other people say that since it is not
>in ISO C it can't be discussed here.
Plenty of things that aren't in the ISO C standard can be discussed here,
as long as they are "general questions about C". E.g. "What is wrong with
the way I use malloc? My code keeps crashing." or "When shall I prefer
malloc over VLAs?" or even "If I need an integer type that is 32-bit,
what is my best bet today?".
>Note that this is an unmoderated newsgroup so that you can post
>anything you want.
Including about how to improve your sex life. But keep in mind that
other people are also free to treat you as you well deserve for abusing
their favourite newsgroup.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-14, 3:56 pm |
| In <cd19cj$oue$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr> "jacob navia" <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:
>"Arthur J. O'Dwyer" <ajo@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> a écrit dans le message de
>news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0407131355310.7354@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
>
>All linux compilers and windows compilers supply alloca.
Show me a way of using alloca on linux or windows without invoking
undefined behaviour!
>Now, if you do not want to use it, it is your choice.
>Why impose such a choice to others?
This is extremely broken logic. By refusing to use something I don't
impose my choice to anyone else. By refusing to discuss about something
I'm not imposing anyone else my choice, either.
Anyone wishing to use alloca, is free to do so. Any questions concerning
alloca, however, should be posted to an implementation-specific newsgroup,
as alloca is known to have portability problems (e.g. behaviour in case of
failure). What *exactly* is wrong with that?
If someone wants to know what are the gotchas of alloca on lcc-win32,
why should he post here and not on the lcc newsgroup?
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Default User 2004-07-14, 3:56 pm |
| Sam Halliday wrote:
>
> Default User wrote:
>
> but thats not what i was saying... i was saying "i now realise what your topic
> is... but it is not obvious and it should be in the FAQ."
>
> i never excepted the topic of this newsgroup to change.
Fair enough. The problem is that your message got somewhat garbled up
with ones from chronic malcontents like Navia who do XXXXX about the
restrictions.
I actually do agree with your point about the FAQ. I'd rather that was
called the C Language FAQ and that there was a separate comp.lang.c FAQ
that referenced that one for programming questions and included all the
usual topicality and structural questions typical of most newsgroup
FAQs. But I'm not in charge of that.
Brian Rodenborn
| |
| E. Robert Tisdale 2004-07-14, 8:55 pm |
| Keith Thompson wrote:
> E. Robert Tisdale writes:
>
>
> Perhaps I was unclear.
>
> It's not necessary to quote the entire article
> to which you're replying.
It isn't necessary to quote any part of the article at all!
We don't want you to quote anything.
All we want you to do is to briefly *paraphrase* the points
in the original post so that we can identify the passage
to which you are responding.
We have the original post and the archives to reference
if there is any doubt about your interpretation.
> But whatever portions you do quote should be quoted exactly
> (apart from any semantically significant reformatting that might be
> necessary to make the quoted text fit in N columns (typically N==72)).
>
> If you feel that you must correct any spelling, punctuation, or
> grammatical errors in quoted text, you should make it clear that
> you've done so; as I said earlier, a simple "typos corrected" should
> be sufficient. But even that is seldom necessary,
> as long as the quoted text, errors and all, is reasonably legible.
>
| |
| Keith Thompson 2004-07-14, 8:55 pm |
| "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisdale@jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
> [his typical nonsense]
Ok.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
| |
| Mark McIntyre 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:24:18 +0200, in comp.lang.c , "jacob navia"
<jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
>
>"Arthur J. O'Dwyer" <ajo@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> a écrit dans le message de
>news:Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0407131355310.7354@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu...
>
>All linux compilers and windows compilers supply alloca.
so what?
>Now, if you do not want to use it, it is your choice.
>Why impose such a choice to others?
Nobody's imposing the choice about using it. You can use MFC if you want
to.
<flamebait>Personally I think its way better than that linux dross, and as
for the so-called compilers you get for those platforms.... </flamebait>
Its discussing it in an ISO C group that rightly gets you flamed.
>
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchamb...ome_to_clc.html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
| |
| Mark McIntyre 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:10:16 +0200, in comp.lang.c , "jacob navia"
<jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
>He called gcc with -ansi
>
>This means all built-in functions will not be recognized.
>
>Of course he doesn't find it!
Which makes the point, though clearly youre either
a) too dense or
b) too obtuse
to see it. I discount (a) as patently absurd. So you must simply be too
obtuse. Hence you're trolling or otherwise trying to be a complete pain in
the derriere. Go away.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchamb...ome_to_clc.html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
| |
| Mark McIntyre 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:39:50 +0000 (UTC), in comp.lang.c , Sam Halliday
<email@example.com> wrote:
>Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>
>you are in credibly patronising and i will not answer your loaded questions. i
>hearby declare comp.lang.c as the most unfriendly newsgroup i have ever had the
>misfortune to come across.
You've clearly not been round much. Some of the rec. groups are /way/ more
unfriendly to people who barge in and try to change the topic than CLC is.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchamb...ome_to_clc.html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| Mark McIntyre wrote:
> You've clearly not been round much. Some of the rec. groups are /way/ more
> unfriendly to people who barge in and try to change the topic than CLC is.
i didn't try to change the topic! read the whole thread before you reply. i said
that the FAQ should contain a description of the newsgroup's topic, so people
knew what the topic was.
| |
|
|
| Mark McIntyre 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:38:32 +0000 (UTC), in comp.lang.c , Sam Halliday
<email@example.com> wrote:
>Mark McIntyre wrote:
>
>i didn't try to change the topic! read the whole thread before you reply.
And I didnt say you'd tried to change the topic. By the way I have read
this entire very tedious thread, despite it being hijacked by jacob.
> i said
>that the FAQ should contain a description of the newsgroup's topic, so people
>knew what the topic was.
The welcome message does that.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchamb...ome_to_clc.html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
| |
| E. Robert Tisdale 2004-07-15, 8:56 pm |
| Mark McIntyre wrote:
> You've clearly not been round much.
> Some of the rec. groups are /way/ more unfriendly
> to people who barge in and try to change the topic than CLC is.
Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque, You Too):
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/...ts.html#you_too
| |
| James Hu 2004-07-16, 3:55 am |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote in message news:<20040715223807.198c2bbd@localhost>...
> i said that the FAQ should contain a description of the newsgroup's
> topic, so people knew what the topic was.
Did you read the whole answer to question 19.1 in the C-faq that I
had pointed out a couple days ago?
... Since comp.lang.c is oriented towards
those topics that the C language has defined support for, you
will usually get better answers to other questions by referring
to a system-specific newsgroup such as comp.unix.questions or
comp.os.msdos.programmer, and to the FAQ lists for these groups.
Regards,
-- James
| |
| Sam Halliday 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| James Hu wrote:
> Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote in message
> news:<20040715223807.198c2bbd@localhost>...
>
> Did you read the whole answer to question 19.1 in the C-faq that I
> had pointed out a couple days ago?
oh come on... an FAQ about a newsgroup and the only mention of the topic of
discussion is hinted at in question 19.1. thats hardly what i am asking for. it
should be the very first sentence to the FAQ.
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| In <b33486ef.0407151930.5b869dea@posting.google.com> jxh@despammed.com (James Hu) writes:
>Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote in message news:<20040715223807.198c2bbd@localhost>...
>
>Did you read the whole answer to question 19.1 in the C-faq that I
>had pointed out a couple days ago?
>
> ... Since comp.lang.c is oriented towards
> those topics that the C language has defined support for, you
> will usually get better answers to other questions by referring
> to a system-specific newsgroup such as comp.unix.questions or
> comp.os.msdos.programmer, and to the FAQ lists for these groups.
Apart from that, the purpose of c.l.c is described, in detail, in a
message that is posted on a wly basis, while the FAQ itself is posted
on a monthly basis.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Alan Balmer 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:00:09 +0000 (UTC), Sam Halliday
<email@example.com> wrote:
>James Hu wrote:
>
>oh come on... an FAQ about a newsgroup and the only mention of the topic of
>discussion is hinted at in question 19.1. thats hardly what i am asking for. it
>should be the very first sentence to the FAQ.
The FAQ is not about the newsgroup. The FAQ is about C programming.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net
| |
| Joona I Palaste 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| Alan Balmer <albalmer@att.net> scribbled the following:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:00:09 +0000 (UTC), Sam Halliday
> <email@example.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
> The FAQ is not about the newsgroup. The FAQ is about C programming.
Then why is it called the comp.lang.c FAQ and not the C FAQ?
--
/-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"War! Huh! Good God, y'all! What is it good for? We asked Mayor Quimby."
- Kent Brockman
| |
| James Hu 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| Sam Halliday <email@example.com> wrote in message news:<20040716135943.66664afc@localhost>...
> James Hu wrote:
>
> oh come on... an FAQ about a newsgroup and the only mention of the topic of
> discussion is hinted at in question 19.1. thats hardly what i am asking for.
Nevertheless, your claim was:
> however, i was very puzzled for a while as the FAQ
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/faq.html
> does not mention anything about the kinds of questions which should be
> asked on this newsgroup.
and this claim is wrong. Using your editor's search function for
"topic", you would find the paragraph I quoted on the third match
out of four total.
If you are annoyed that the answer was there but you did not find it,
don't be. The C-faq is big, and contains lots of answers to lots of
other questions that are not immediately evident from the list of
questions that index it. It really should be read from start to
finish for maximum benefit.
> it should be the very first sentence to the FAQ.
That is not what you originally asked for.
As Dan mentions, the "Welcome to comp.lang.c!" message is posted more
frequently than the FAQ. The last posting was:
http://groups.google.com/groups?sel...Q%40comcast.com
I only post it every other w though.
-- James
| |
| Alan Balmer 2004-07-16, 3:55 pm |
| On 16 Jul 2004 16:52:47 GMT, Joona I Palaste <palaste@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
>Alan Balmer <albalmer@att.net> scribbled the following:
>
>
>Then why is it called the comp.lang.c FAQ and not the C FAQ?
If it were called the "Steve Summit FAQ", would you expect it to be
about Steve Summit?
As noted on the first line, it is content from the book "C
Programming FAQs: Frequently Asked Questions" .
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net
| |
| Steve Summit 2004-07-17, 3:55 am |
| Alan Balmer wrote:
And this is actually quite correct.
Joona I Palaste asked:[color=darkred]
A fair question. Besides the simple fact that it's posted here,
the other main reason I've tended to leave "comp.lang.c" in the
name is as a matter of acknowledgement. Though the list is about
C programming, it owes a huge debt to the newsgroup, because that's
where the questions were distilled from, along with most of the
answers. (But if y'all wanna get huffy about it I could always
take the newsgroup out of the list's name. :-) )
Alan Balmer added:[color=darkred]
> As noted on the first line, it is content from the book
> "C Programming FAQs: Frequently Asked Questions" .
Well, yes, but that really refers to "that content which was
added when the book was written." The list as posted to Usenet
came first, by a considerable margin.
Steve Summit
scs@eskimo.com
| |
| Steve Summit 2004-07-19, 8:55 am |
| Sam Halliday wrote:
>James Hu wrote:
>
> oh come on... an FAQ about a newsgroup and the only mention of the
> topic of discussion is hinted at in question 19.1.
On the one hand, you're right, it's unfair to expect someone to
find that fact hidden there. And while the FAQ list was (to be
honest) originally written with the expectation that it be read
cover-to-cover, this too is an unrealistic and unreasonable
requirement. In fact, whenever someone scolds you for not having
noticed some salient fact hiding in a disused footnote of the
FAQ list behind a link marked "beware of the leopard", *you* can
scold *them* for not having noticed this sentence sitting right
there in the introduction:
This is a large and heavy document, so don't assume that
everyone on the net has managed to read all of it in
detail, and please don't roll it up and thwack people
over the head with it just because they missed their
answer in it.
> it should be the very first sentence to the FAQ.
On the other hand, though, there's a fallacy here. At other
times (i.e. when we've just emerged bloodied from yet another
horribly tedious rehash of some other tired old topic), it has
seemed like the very first sentence of the FAQ list really needed
to be "What's the story with null pointers?" or "How do I read
single characters without waiting for the RETURN key?" or "What's
wrong with void(main)?" or "Why doesn't i++-++i do what I expect?".
Comp.lang.c's FAQ list goes back quite a ways. Back when I first
started constructing it, FAQ lists covered, well, questions that
were frequently asked in a newsgroup; they did not attempt to
be comprehensive introductions to the newsgroup (or the topic),
or to enumerate the group's charter or posting guidelines or
netiquette or whatnot. And I've been pretty stubborn and/or lazy
(in the face of admittedly quite a few requests) to put that
stuff in, feeling that it belonged in a separate "Welcome to..."
document which, in the fullness to time, Billy Chambless was kind
enough to write and James has been kind enough to keep posting.
With that said, however, I do intend to add a new section 21
dedicated solely to comp.lang.c netiquette issues. (Among other
things, for better or worse, questions like "What's the group's
charter?" and "What are the posting guidelines?" and especially
"Why is everyone beating me up for posting a perfectly ordinary
question?" now *are* Frequently Asked here, sometimes seemingly
more frequently than the real questions we ought to be
discussing.) I almost wrote that new section a couple of months
ago, but I decided that completing the rest of the long-delayed
improvements ought to come first.
Steve Summit
scs@eskimo.com
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-19, 3:55 pm |
| In <cd914v$3mc$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Joona I Palaste <palaste@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
>Alan Balmer <albalmer@att.net> scribbled the following:
>
>
>Then why is it called the comp.lang.c FAQ and not the C FAQ?
Engage your brain, Joona, engage your brain. It doesn't hurt!
The FAQ is not about the newsgroup, but it answers questions frequently
asked in the newsgroup [*], whether topical or not. How should it
be named?
[*] Or questions that were frequently asked at some time in the past and
questions perceived by its maintainer as frequently asked.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
| |
| Joona I Palaste 2004-07-19, 3:55 pm |
| Dan Pop <Dan.Pop@cern.ch> scribbled the following:
> In <cd914v$3mc$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Joona I Palaste <palaste@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
[color=darkred]
> Engage your brain, Joona, engage your brain. It doesn't hurt!
> The FAQ is not about the newsgroup, but it answers questions frequently
> asked in the newsgroup [*], whether topical or not. How should it
> be named?
Erm, the C FAQ, because it answers questions frequently asked about C?
It answers these questions regardless of *where* they are asked.
Therefore I think the C FAQ is a good name for it.
> [*] Or questions that were frequently asked at some time in the past and
> questions perceived by its maintainer as frequently asked.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
| |
| Dan Pop 2004-07-20, 3:55 pm |
| In <cdh052$9lo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Joona I Palaste <palaste@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
>Dan Pop <Dan.Pop@cern.ch> scribbled the following:
>
>
>
>Erm, the C FAQ, because it answers questions frequently asked about C?
>It answers these questions regardless of *where* they are asked.
Nope, Steve collected them from c.l.c and, most likely, he has no clue
about what C questions are asked elsewhere (imagine a C forum dedicated
to Japanese programmers, who might be facing a set of completely different
problems, or a C forum dedicated to professional embedded control
programmers).
>Therefore I think the C FAQ is a good name for it.
Wrong. The source of the C questions is *relevant*. See above.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de
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