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System Building with APL+Win ISBN 0470030208
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| AA2e72E 2006-07-07, 6:56 pm |
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Jimserac wrote:
> At 75 bucks a copy, it has a Win APL demo on the CD... right?
It does not have a CD but the book gives details of WEB downloads: I
hope that by 'Win APL' you do NOT mean he interpreter itself!
| |
| Curtis A. Jones 2006-07-07, 6:56 pm |
| Jim,
$75 puts it outside my range for an impulse purchase. But have you
noticed the price of textbooks these days? Here at San Jose State the
cost of textbooks for each of the four engineering courses in which
I've taught is over $100. I'm not saying I approve of those prices,
but $75 for a somewhat specialized book isn't surprising.
"System Building with APL + WIN" is big: 496 pages. Did you look at
the table of contents offered on the Web?
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Wiley...authorInfo.html
There are about 500 topics! That's more intimidating than the price!
:-)
Curtis
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-07, 6:56 pm |
| Curtis A. Jones wrote:
>I'm not saying I approve of those prices, but $75 for a somewhat specializ=
ed book isn't surprising.
It is strange indeed! At $31 per annum for SIGAPL membership, or =A320
for BAPL membership (4 x 144 pages), APL people see them as expensive.
This book is published in the UK, it is a two publishers' joint
offering. Considering that the retailer buys the copies at roughly 50%
of the cover price, the cost of shipping etc. is $75 that expensive?
How much does the interpreter cost? How much does an APL course cost?
The last book on APL, APL2 in Depth was published in 1995 (over 10
years ago) comprising of 264 pages; it cost me =A328.00.
Publishers know that APL books will not sell as widely as, say, C#
books; that pushes up the price. Because of lack of sales, it is nearly
impossible to get APL into print.
Surely, it is the content of any book (and how much time it saves)
rather than the cover price per se that is the overriding concern. On
this basis, I recently acquired 'Evidence Based Medicine' at =A3125.00!
| |
| Ibeam2000 2006-07-08, 7:56 am |
| Although I don't live in the US, I travel there from time to time and
got the various discount cards from Borders and Barnes & Noble, the two
bookstore chains which are more or less omnipresent in the American
landsc(r)ape, at least in major and minor metropolitan areas. Both
often have a decent selection of computer books. Barnes and Noble's
discount card is the easiest to get, just pay $25 and get 10% off for
the next year. This applies to book purchases and edibles from
Starbucks, which evidently has a useful but fattening parasitic
relationship with Barnes & Nobles.
Borders is a little harder. The discount (20%) card is offered only to
US "businesses" and you have to send in for it. But it's free. In
principle, you need a US mailing address and an employer identification
number. (If you need to make one up, 36-33xxxxx). Also, you would
need to buy books relevant to the business with the card. The cashier
might question material of a more recreational nature, plus you can't
get 20% off on a capuccino from the Borders copycat bistretto
I haven't tried my Borders discount card in the UK.
Borders more recently started a general discount program, but the
discount is a paltry 10% and often in conjunction with the receipt you
have from your previous purchase. There is often a short time limit,
and invariably the flight has already left.
I intuitively feel that if you special ordered the book in the US,
Borders would give you a discount but Barnes wouldn't, I will soon find
out.
But back to prices, although I find the $75 price steep, it is
certainly in line with specialty textbooks in the US. But a 20%
discount means $15 off, or a more manageable $60. Plus a reduction in
sales tax. At least the UK suggested retail price of GBP 40 bears some
resemblence to the current exchange rate. Personally, I prefer
shopping at Foyles.
Lastly, the book is also listed in Amazon.con, a hardcover version
published by Research Studies Press lists for $68. GBP 38 in
amazon.co.uk, EUR 63.90 in amazon.de.
AA2e72E wrote:
> Curtis A. Jones wrote:
ized book isn't surprising.[color=darkred]
>
> It is strange indeed! At $31 per annum for SIGAPL membership, or =A320
> for BAPL membership (4 x 144 pages), APL people see them as expensive.
> This book is published in the UK, it is a two publishers' joint
> offering. Considering that the retailer buys the copies at roughly 50%
> of the cover price, the cost of shipping etc. is $75 that expensive?
> How much does the interpreter cost? How much does an APL course cost?
>
> The last book on APL, APL2 in Depth was published in 1995 (over 10
> years ago) comprising of 264 pages; it cost me =A328.00.
>
> Publishers know that APL books will not sell as widely as, say, C#
> books; that pushes up the price. Because of lack of sales, it is nearly
> impossible to get APL into print.
>
> Surely, it is the content of any book (and how much time it saves)
> rather than the cover price per se that is the overriding concern. On
> this basis, I recently acquired 'Evidence Based Medicine' at =A3125.00!
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-08, 7:56 am |
|
Ibeam2000 wrote:
> Lastly, the book is also listed in Amazon.con, a hardcover version published by Research Studies Press lists for $68. GBP 38 in amazon.co.uk, EUR 63.90 in amazon.de.
Research Studies Press were the original publishers, hit operational
difficulties and handed over/sold the manuscript to J Wiley. So, there
is only one book, the RSP offering shown on some sites is out-of-date.
In the UK, www.tesco.com have the cheapest price at GBP 38.00 with free
delivery.
| |
| Randy MacDonald 2006-07-08, 7:56 am |
| "Curtis A. Jones" <curtis_jones@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:1152303317.452354.314640@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
> Jim,
> $75 puts it outside my range for an impulse purchase. But have you
> noticed the price of textbooks these days? Here at San Jose State the
> cost of textbooks for each of the four engineering courses in which
> I've taught is over $100. I'm not saying I approve of those prices,
> but $75 for a somewhat specialized book isn't surprising.
>
> "System Building with APL + WIN" is big: 496 pages. Did you look at
> the table of contents offered on the Web?
> http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Wiley...30208,descCd-au
> thorInfo.html There are about 500 topics! That's more intimidating
> than the price!
>:-)
> Curtis
>
>
My mileage varies. The table of contents page (thanks for providing the
link) tells me the book covers the issue in a non-toy fashion, and there
looks likes a lot of good stuff in there, stuff I'd have figured out for
myself had the need arisen. I have been waiting for something like this
since Lib Gibson's book came out (is that 15+ years !? :-( ) I'll be
looking to special order my copy at Chapters.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\/| Randy A MacDonald | APL: If you can say it, it's done.. (ram)
|/\| ramacd@nbnet.nb.ca |
|\ | |If you cannot describe what you are doing
BSc(Math) UNBF'83 žas a process, you don't know what you're doing.
Sapere Aude | - W. E. Deming
Natural Born APL'er | Demo website: http://156.34.85.62/
-----------------------------------------------------(INTP)----{ gnat }-
| |
| Jimserac 2006-07-08, 6:56 pm |
|
AA2e72E wrote:
> Jimserac wrote:
>
> It does not have a CD but the book gives details of WEB downloads: I
> hope that by 'Win APL' you do NOT mean he interpreter itself!
Yes, of course I meant the interpreter itself, or more correctly,
a demo version thereof. You think I'm going to shell out $75 bucks
for a book where I can read about the damn thing without being able to
try any of
it out?
Jim
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| AA2e72E 2006-07-08, 6:56 pm |
|
Jimserac wrote:
> Jimserac wrote:
You think I'm going to shell out $75 bucks for a book where I can read
about the damn thing without being able to try any of it out?
What planet do you hail from?
Or let the rest of know where you buy
a book on Office & get the whole application suite thrown in?
or a book on ADO and get SQL Server, Oracle, DB2 etc thrown in?
or a workshop manual for your favourite car and get the car thrown in?
or a plane ticket and get the whole 747 thrown in?
or go to a restaurant for a meal and have the restaurant provide a
cookery course for your choice of meal
or buy Linux and get the computer thrown in?
Wake up!
| |
| Jimserac 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
|
AA2e72E wrote:
> Jimserac wrote:
> You think I'm going to shell out $75 bucks for a book where I can read
> about the damn thing without being able to try any of it out?
>
> What planet do you hail from?
>
> Or let the rest of know where you buy
>
> a book on Office & get the whole application suite thrown in?
> or a book on ADO and get SQL Server, Oracle, DB2 etc thrown in?
> or a workshop manual for your favourite car and get the car thrown in?
> or a plane ticket and get the whole 747 thrown in?
> or go to a restaurant for a meal and have the restaurant provide a
> cookery course for your choice of meal
> or buy Linux and get the computer thrown in?
>
> Wake up!
..
We're not talking about Office or SQL or Linux, we're talking about
the world's g iest computer language, currently in severe disfavor
with the programming community and ready to be checked into
a place of honor at the local computer museum.
We're talking about a language whoose inventor washed his hands of it
and decided to try again - the results, called J, are available FREE
for an immediate download and tryout, along with numerous books
on J, also available for FREE download. So why in the hell should
I spend $75 bucks for a book that does not even include
a lousy CD with a demo interpreter on it?
I must be an idiot for even posting here. I guess I really liked
APL but I'm going back to J now.
Yes that explains it, I'm an idiot.
Thanks
Jim
| |
| Rex Swain 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
| Ajay, amazon.com shows this book as not yet released: "Publisher: John
Wiley & Sons (September 11, 2006)". Any idea what's up with that?
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
|
Rex Swain wrote:
> Ajay, amazon.com shows this book as not yet released: "Publisher: John Wiley & Sons (September 11, 2006)". Any idea what's up with that?
Rex, are you in the US? Availability may vary depending on country. In
the UK, the book is on the shelf on 14 July 2006. I have got one of the
'advance' copies.
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
|
Jimserac wrote:
> Yes that explains it, I'm an idiot.
Jim, I hope you do not expect me to agree with you.
As I read it, your anger is clearly based on the cost of APL
interpreters rather than APL itself. You would be surprised how many
people have sympathy with this standpoint.
>We're talking about a language whose inventor washed his hands of it
It is amazing what the economics of making a living can prompt you to
do. Besides, the clearest definition of J is simply 'APL without the
APL symbols'. I don't think J is that much further back in the queue
for the 'computer museum'.
Would you think differently about APL if J had NOT been available for
free? How probable is it that J would never have seen the light of day
had it not been free?
Did you know that Einstein was turned down for a teacher's position?
Does that make his contribnution to mankind any less valuable? So how
does Iverson moving on to J discredit APL?
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
|
Jimserac wrote:
> So why in the hell should I spend $75 bucks for a book that does not even include
a lousy CD with a demo interpreter on it?
Actually, this statement contains a golden nugget, believe it or not. I
wonder how possible this is possible:
A runtime workspace with a GUI that has an Edit box for entering
expressions and another (read only) edit box for the output. The
runtime version of the interpreter is free.
I'll try it out.
| |
| Jimserac 2006-07-09, 7:56 am |
|
AA2e72E wrote:
> Jimserac wrote:
>
> Jim, I hope you do not expect me to agree with you.
>
> As I read it, your anger is clearly based on the cost of APL
> interpreters rather than APL itself. You would be surprised how many
> people have sympathy with this standpoint.
>
>
> It is amazing what the economics of making a living can prompt you to
> do. Besides, the clearest definition of J is simply 'APL without the
> APL symbols'. I don't think J is that much further back in the queue
> for the 'computer museum'.
>
> Would you think differently about APL if J had NOT been available for
> free? How probable is it that J would never have seen the light of day
> had it not been free?
>
> Did you know that Einstein was turned down for a teacher's position?
> Does that make his contribnution to mankind any less valuable? So how
> does Iverson moving on to J discredit APL?
Yes I am  at the cost of the interpreters.
But my main feeling about APL is a continual state
of astonishment.
Astonishment at the power of the language, the ease
at which complex algorithms can be expressed in a few
simple and easily understood symbols while the procedural
languages representation of the same algorithm spills over
into pages of unreadable loop-de-loops.
Astonishment that APL is not the primary language being
taught in Computer Science courses. Astonishment that
scientific papers from many disparate disciplines do not use
it as the lingua franca of algorithmic description - as once started
to happen in the 70's and 80's and then mysteriously stopped in the
early 90's. Astonishment that APL is not used as the perfect
bridge between the worlds of software and hardware description
(as once started to happen in the 70's and ... etc).
Astonishment that the development tools being offered
for sale at such high prices do not include a compiler to create
a standalone executable that is not merely a replication of the
interpreter environment - well the answer to that one is easy,
none of the interpreter vendors probably knows how to
build a compiler - seriously, who was the last guy to make
one for APL - back in the 70's??
Astonishment that the principal organization to popularize
APL, the SIGAPL (or is it SICAPL??) can have a web page that says,
"click here" if you
don't see the proper APL symbols and then gives
careful instructions for downloading the appropriate fonts
but then fails to mention that it won't work anyway unless
the user manually adjusts his browser to handle the proper
codepage.
Astonishment that a book on APL appears which could win over
hundreds if not thousands of new user-customers if only they
would include SOME SORT of APL interpreter on an included CD
but then includes no CD and nobody finds this odd.
I've obviously wandered into a twilight zone where normal rules
do not apply, sort of like the TV series "The Prisoner" except that
the escape is easy, only a mouseclick away.
Jim
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-09, 6:56 pm |
| Jim, clearly you are a strong APL proponent, albeit an equally strong
anti APL vendor. I would guess that your affinity for APL would not be
any less if you moved 'one mouse click away'.
I hope you are aware that APLX have a free APL for Linux? Their APLX
for Windows is around =A3500, i.e. about a third the cost of APL+Win. I
think Dyalog have a concessionary price for 'non commercial' use of
their interpreter. In this forum, someone said that APL+Win v3.6 was
available for $99 (I never found it!).
" ...do not use it as the lingua franca of algorithmic description ..."
Part of the reason is that APL is not on the book shelves. If I want to
learn C#, I can get a dozen books from any bookstore. It is a vicious
circle: no books =3D cannot learn it =3D no demand for APL =3D no books ...=
..=2E
As far as I know, only one book has used APL (APL*PLUS/PC), namely,
Computer Architecture by Baauw and Brooks. That did not come with an
interpreter (of any kind) either.
" ...do not include a compiler to create a standalone executable ..."
This is a tenuous argument, I think. Besides, the contemporary flagship
language, C#, is arguably not compiled as it still needs the underlying
framework. Alternatively, a cosmetic rearrangement of the menu system
of, say, APLX may offer a 'compiled' executable (no other dependency).
APLX has a facility for producing an EXE from a workspace. Cheap and
fast hardware makes the need for compilation less and less. I prefer to
have the interaction that interpreted APL offers, especially during
development.
" ...the SIGAPL (or is it SICAPL??) ..."
Someone down the line always has to part with hard cash to make things
happen. SIGAPL, like BAA, exist because of voluntary work by some
individuals. No doubt, things can be a lot better but who pays to get
there? The APL community is very unwilling: the membership (despite, in
my view, cheap subscription rates) of both SIGAPL and BAA have been
shrinking for years. On the bright side, these organisations are
keeping the APL flag flying.
" ... (if) only they would include SOME SORT of APL interpreter ..
(with the book)"
'System Building with APL+Win' has nothing to do with APL2000 [I read
"they" as meaning APL2000] except that it is based on one of their
product, APL+Win. Nonetheless, if APL2000 did provide an interpreter
(of whatever kind), someone will have to bear the cost .... I do not
see a queue!
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-12, 3:56 am |
| Excerpts of the book can be viewed using the 'Search Inside' facility
at www.amazon.co.uk. The code developed in the book is available for
down load; the link in in the book as consists of a 200K workspace-all
the code in the book plus 'work-in-progress'=and projects in other
languages.
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-12, 3:56 am |
|
AA2e72E wrote:
> the book as consists of a 200K workspace-all the code in the book ...
That's 200K zipped or nearly 600K unzipped.
| |
| Morten Kromberg 2006-07-13, 7:57 am |
| Ajay,
Just back from vacation - have ordered a copy of the book for Dyalog as
well... Congratulations on getting the book published!
Regarding the suggestion below, I believe that an application which
just puts up an input form and executes the input would violate most
APL run-time licenses, as it does not add significant functionality to
that provided by the APL system. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure
that most APL vendors would be happy to grant a special license for
this purpose.
Regards,
Morten
AA2e72E wrote:
> Jimserac wrote:
> a lousy CD with a demo interpreter on it?
>
> Actually, this statement contains a golden nugget, believe it or not. I
> wonder how possible this is possible:
>
> A runtime workspace with a GUI that has an Edit box for entering
> expressions and another (read only) edit box for the output. The
> runtime version of the interpreter is free.
>
> I'll try it out.
| |
| microapl@microapl.demon.co.uk 2006-07-18, 6:56 pm |
| AA2e72E wrote:
> This book is now in print; more details at:
>
> http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyT...0470030208.html
>
>
We purchased a copy, which arrived from Wiley promptly here in the UK.
Here are some initial impressions.
It's a large book with a lot of useful information and samples in it
(nearly 500 densely-packed pages). You certainly get a lot of content
for your money!
The book is particularly detailed on interfacing APL to Windows itself
and to other Microsoft software (Word, Excel, Access, Visual Basic, ADO
etc) - I think this will be very useful since trudging through the
Microsoft documentation can sometimes be very hard work, and is
difficult for many APL users.
The title is perhaps a little misleading, since it is not only confined
to APL+Win. Ajay includes brief information on adapting the examples
to other APL interpreters. Many of the code samples should work with
little or no change under APLX, and there is also some (limited)
coverage of how you would adapt them to Dyalog APL.
Overall, it looks as though an impressive amount of work has gone into
this book.
Richard Nabavi
MicroAPL
| |
| Bob Cain 2006-07-18, 6:56 pm |
| microapl@microapl.demon.co.uk wrote:
> ... there is also some (limited)
> coverage of how you would adapt them to Dyalog APL.
Room there for a companion book. Hint, Dyalog. :-)
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-18, 9:55 pm |
| Richard Nabavi wrote:
>The title is perhaps a little misleading,...
Bob Cain wrote:
> Room there for a companion book. Hint, Dyalog. :-)
My intentions were quite the reverse: when I started writing, I had no
experience of APLX and cursory experience of Dyalog V7.0. As I intended
to illustrate the topics I discuss in the book with tested code, I
could only do so with APL+Win. Hence the title.
Of course I have now learnt how close APLX is to APL+Win and know that
most of the code will work as is with APLX; I still could not change
the title as I did not have time to test the APLX code. The book was
supposed to be in print in 2003 and I did not want to delay it any
longer.
Earlier this year, I took a close look at Dyalog V10. The Dyalog
interface is very different,so the code will not work as is with
Dyalog. However, most of the the 600k of code that accompanies the book
can be translated to Dyalog with help; this might be possible after
Dyalog have released V11 when they might have some time to assist. At
the moment, this is merely a wish rather than an ongoing project.
| |
| Paul Mansour 2006-07-19, 6:57 pm |
| Hi Ajay,
Just pre-ordered your book on Amazon.com (us). Look forward to
receiving it.
Paul,
PS. Didn't realized Ajay Askoolum = AA2e72E.
| |
| Paul Mansour 2006-07-19, 6:57 pm |
| And I forgot... congratulations!
Paul Mansour wrote:
> Hi Ajay,
>
> Just pre-ordered your book on Amazon.com (us). Look forward to
> receiving it.
>
> Paul,
>
> PS. Didn't realized Ajay Askoolum = AA2e72E.
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-07-19, 6:57 pm |
|
Paul Mansour wrote:
> And I forgot... congratulations!
Thank you Paul.
The latest information I have is that the book is on its way to
distribution centres in the US and Canada; hopefully it will be
available very soon.
| |
|
|
| AA2e72E 2006-07-23, 3:56 am |
|
Don Wiss wrote:
> Is the book hardcover or paperback? I find both for the same price:
There is only one book, from J Wiley, whose ISBN is 0470030208 and it
is a 524 page paperback; the correct cover picture is shown at
www.amazon.co.uk. This version is for all countries: there are no
country specific version.
Any difference in the information shown at various sites are dated, a
reflection of the history of difficulties I encountered in getting the
book into print.
Unfortunately, book web sites, including Amazon, do not accept
instructions for corrections except from the publisher who supplied the
original information: as I understand it, publishers send the
information to some other agent who produces periodic updates and sells
them to the web sites. I have tried to get web sites to show the
correct information, without success.
| |
|
| Unfortunately, the Index in the book is out of line with its content; a
revised Index is available for download at the site given in the book
for downloading its associated code.
| |
| J. Clarke 2006-08-08, 6:56 pm |
| Ibeam2000 wrote:
> Although I don't live in the US, I travel there from time to time and
> got the various discount cards from Borders and Barnes & Noble, the two
> bookstore chains which are more or less omnipresent in the American
> landsc(r)ape, at least in major and minor metropolitan areas. Both
> often have a decent selection of computer books. Barnes and Noble's
> discount card is the easiest to get, just pay $25 and get 10% off for
> the next year. This applies to book purchases and edibles from
> Starbucks, which evidently has a useful but fattening parasitic
> relationship with Barnes & Nobles.
>
> Borders is a little harder. The discount (20%) card is offered only to
> US "businesses" and you have to send in for it. But it's free. In
> principle, you need a US mailing address and an employer identification
> number. (If you need to make one up, 36-33xxxxx). Also, you would
> need to buy books relevant to the business with the card. The cashier
> might question material of a more recreational nature, plus you can't
> get 20% off on a capuccino from the Borders copycat bistretto
Be careful with making up tax numbers. If you don't live in the US then the
gummint will have trouble getting you but if you're in-country and slip up
and they find that there's an outstanding warrant for you for failure to
pay your sales tax you can end up spending the night in jail or worse.
[color=darkred]
> I haven't tried my Borders discount card in the UK.
>
> Borders more recently started a general discount program, but the
> discount is a paltry 10% and often in conjunction with the receipt you
> have from your previous purchase. There is often a short time limit,
> and invariably the flight has already left.
>
> I intuitively feel that if you special ordered the book in the US,
> Borders would give you a discount but Barnes wouldn't, I will soon find
> out.
>
> But back to prices, although I find the $75 price steep, it is
> certainly in line with specialty textbooks in the US. But a 20%
> discount means $15 off, or a more manageable $60. Plus a reduction in
> sales tax. At least the UK suggested retail price of GBP 40 bears some
> resemblence to the current exchange rate. Personally, I prefer
> shopping at Foyles.
>
> Lastly, the book is also listed in Amazon.con, a hardcover version
> published by Research Studies Press lists for $68. GBP 38 in
> amazon.co.uk, EUR 63.90 in amazon.de.
>
>
> AA2e72E wrote:
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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