Home > Archive > APL > June 2006 > APL keyboard without key-caps/stickers?
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
APL keyboard without key-caps/stickers?
|
|
|
|
| J. Clarke 2006-05-25, 6:57 pm |
| Roberto Waltman wrote:
>
> Under development, keyboard with tiny programmable OLED displays under
> each key:
>
> http://artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus-mini/answers/
So let's see, I can pay 160 bucks for a keyboard that will last 3 years if I
don't break the fragile OLED screens or I can pay a lot less for one with
APL keycaps that will probably be working long after I'm not.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
| |
| Don Kelly 2006-05-25, 9:56 pm |
| "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:e54rbc02m23@news2.newsguy.com...
> Roberto Waltman wrote:
>
>
> So let's see, I can pay 160 bucks for a keyboard that will last 3 years if
> I
> don't break the fragile OLED screens or I can pay a lot less for one with
> APL keycaps that will probably be working long after I'm not.
>
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
-----------------
Or you can print a copy of the keycaps on a sticky back piece of paper and
cut and paste. Replace as needed. Or even cheaper, just have a key
assignment page nearby and, after some experience, most keys will come to
mind automatically. less difficult
than remembering a 14 digit bank card number.
--
Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
| |
|
| Don Kelly wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
> news:e54rbc02m23@news2.newsguy.com...
> -----------------
> Or you can print a copy of the keycaps on a sticky back piece of paper and
> cut and paste. Replace as needed. Or even cheaper, just have a key
> assignment page nearby and, after some experience, most keys will come to
> mind automatically. less difficult
> than remembering a 14 digit bank card number.
>
Or, in APL+Win at least, when you forget where a key is you can run the
built-in user-defined command ]kb which displays the APL+Win keyboard.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
| |
| Zdenek Jizba 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| RAV wrote:
> Don Kelly wrote:
>
>
> Or, in APL+Win at least, when you forget where a key is you can run
> the built-in user-defined command ]kb which displays the APL+Win
> keyboard.
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
I still have some keyboards in the garage with pasted APL labels that
we prepared years ago for an APL tutorial at Southern California Sigapl.
| |
| Charles Richmond 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| Zdenek Jizba wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> I still have some keyboards in the garage with pasted APL labels that
> we prepared years ago for an APL tutorial at Southern California Sigapl.
>
I got into this thread late, so forgive me if I am repeating someone
else's suggestion:
Get custom keycaps made for your keyboard. Go to the following web
site...they give online quotes for this sevrice:
<http://www.synctronics.com/>
Alternatively, get an old Decwriter that has an APL keyboard and use
that keyboard converted to a PC keyboard. This may take some specilized
hardware knowledge, but you can probably find someone to help you.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| Certainly it is possible to learn where the APL symbols are after a
sustained period of use; therefore, a keyboard showing the APL symbols
is probably unnecessary. The added difficulty is that the various APL
interpreters have different mappings. With APL+Win I know where the APL
symbols are but have difficulty when switching to APLx or Dyalog: I
overcome this with a picture of the keyboard layout to hand.
I still believe that a keyboard with APL symbols professionally
engraved is important for two reasons:
1. It builds the confidence of new recruits to the APL fold.
2. There is no better way to develop an APL conciousness than by having
the APL keyboard clearly visible.
If it was viable for APL*PLUS to provide character set EPROMS and to
expect users tomake the hardware modication, it must be viable for
vendors to supply an APL engraved keyboard with their interpreter.
There is no better way to make APL visible.
| |
| me@privacy.net 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| In <1148671873.821772.17460@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 05/26/2006
at 12:31 PM, "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> said:
>Certainly it is possible to learn where the APL symbols are after a
>sustained period of use; therefore, a keyboard showing the APL symbols is
>probably unnecessary. The added difficulty is that the various APL
>interpreters have different mappings. With APL+Win I know where the APL
>symbols are but have difficulty when switching to APLx or Dyalog: I
>overcome this with a picture of the keyboard layout to hand.
>I still believe that a keyboard with APL symbols professionally engraved
>is important for two reasons:
>1. It builds the confidence of new recruits to the APL fold. 2. There is
>no better way to develop an APL conciousness than by having the APL
>keyboard clearly visible.
>If it was viable for APL*PLUS to provide character set EPROMS and to
>expect users tomake the hardware modication, it must be viable for
>vendors to supply an APL engraved keyboard with their interpreter. There
>is no better way to make APL visible.
Per the FAQ, APL key caps are available from IBM publications for $90 or
so. The IBM part number is SX80-0270 for a US/UK keyboard. See the FAQ
for other languages.
-- Dave
-----------------------------------------------------------
dhdurgee<at>verizon<dot>net
-----------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Doug White 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| Keywords:
In article <1148671873.821772.17460@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
>Certainly it is possible to learn where the APL symbols are after a
>sustained period of use; therefore, a keyboard showing the APL symbols
>is probably unnecessary. The added difficulty is that the various APL
>interpreters have different mappings. With APL+Win I know where the APL
>symbols are but have difficulty when switching to APLx or Dyalog: I
>overcome this with a picture of the keyboard layout to hand.
>
>I still believe that a keyboard with APL symbols professionally
>engraved is important for two reasons:
>
>1. It builds the confidence of new recruits to the APL fold.
>2. There is no better way to develop an APL conciousness than by having
>the APL keyboard clearly visible.
>
>If it was viable for APL*PLUS to provide character set EPROMS and to
>expect users tomake the hardware modication, it must be viable for
>vendors to supply an APL engraved keyboard with their interpreter.
>There is no better way to make APL visible.
Stickers work very well, and are a lot less expensive than a whole nwe
keyboard. Just in case anyone is in the market for a set, I recently
checked and the outfit I used to get them from still has them available.
The company is Hooleon Corp (http://www.hooleon.com/)
The part number for the APL keyboard stickers is 223-312-0132 and they
are $14.95 each. Quantity or dealer discounts are available.
The sales person I contacted is Sandy Doucet. She can be reached by
phone at 1-800-937-1337-Ext 203 or by email at sandyd@hooleon.com
I have no connection with Hooleon except as a satisfied customer (many
years ago). Their stickers are similar to the ones STSC used to provide
with their PC versions of APL. The Hooleon stickers are designed to
support both STSC and IBM keyboard layouts, with color coded symbols to
indicate Alt, Ctrl or Shift key use.
Doug White
| |
| David Liebtag 2006-05-26, 6:57 pm |
| Although we of course have many APL keyboards in the IBM APL development
group, I wanted one for my personal use. I bought one several years ago
from www.pckeyboard.com and it's terrific. It has the Selectric feel, came
with APL characters engraved on the keytops, and has removable keycaps. As
I recall, I paid under 100 USD.
I certainly would not want vendors to include a keyboard with their
interpreters. I already have many more keyboards than I need and I don't
want another one each time I buy a new release. I also don't want to pay
any price increase to offset the increase cost to the vendors.
David Liebtag
IBM APL Products and Services
| |
| Tracker 2006-05-26, 9:56 pm |
| Ah - that is $160 for a 3-button keyboard. The What is the price of a full keyboard????
J. Clarke wrote:
> Roberto Waltman wrote:
>
>
> So let's see, I can pay 160 bucks for a keyboard that will last 3 years if I
> don't break the fragile OLED screens or I can pay a lot less for one with
> APL keycaps that will probably be working long after I'm not.
>
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-05-27, 3:56 am |
| I have what used to be called an IBM Professional 102-key keyboard with
APL keycaps. It is nice to use, the APL symbols are clearly visible but
I do not use it. Why? Because the keycaps for the typewriter symbols
correspond to the US keyboard and I am in the UK.
I can buy a UK keyboard for =A34.00, one-off and including tax @ 17.5%.
Such a keyboard is not robust and it is unlikely to last at long as the
IBM Professional keyboard but it will last just long enough to learn
APL without wrestling to find the symbols. I am sure APL vendors could
charge, say, 4 times as much and this would not be such a big overhead.
In 1977/78, brand new IBM terminals arrived at my workspace with APL
keyboards. These kindled my own curiosity with the red hyroglypics and
started by interest in APL. Everyone of the 200+ people who used these
terminals knew/learnt that the symbols are although but a dozen or so
actually used APL.
This psychological effect will work today just as it did then: an APL
keyboard makes APL visible in the workplace. This can only help the
cause.
| |
| Dick Bowman 2006-05-27, 3:56 am |
| "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> wrote in news:1148707174.142993.107810
@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> [... deleted ...] an APL
> keyboard makes APL visible in the workplace. This can only help the
> cause.
>
Alternatively - it would produce fuel for the "I don't want to know about
APL because it needs special hardware" mob.
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-05-27, 3:56 am |
|
Dick Bowman wrote:
> Alternatively - it would produce fuel for the "I don't want to know about APL because it needs special hardware" mob.
Possibly. However, in this respect, it is does not handicap APL.
Hardware is easily acquired for a one-off cost and this is no more of
an issue than requiring a colour plotter for Excel, a scanner for Word,
a SAN for electronic document management etc.
An APL keyboard is non-intrusive (so far as other applications are
concerned) but of great benefit to (novice) users of APL. My own
experience is that when those IBM terminals were introduced in my then
Office, APL transparently entered the routine Office vocabulary. 'APL'
was not (no longer) a dirty word.
An engraved APL keyboard needs to be available as a cheap option.
Stickers, of any kind, is not acceptable: within w s of use, a
keyboard with stickers ends up looking like something from which you
can catch a terminal disease!
| |
| TaliesinSoft 2006-05-28, 3:56 am |
| I started using APL in the Fall of 1969 on an IBM Selectric based terminal.
Since then I have used APL on a vast variety of terminals and personal
computers. Interestingly I have never ever felt the need for APL specific
keyboards or stickies or such. It only took me a very short time to memorize
which keys and/or options I needed to press to produce a given APL glyph. My
own opinion is that stickies and such only create an unneeded dependency.
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com
| |
| Gilbert Giappesi 2006-05-28, 7:56 am |
| David Liebtag a écrit :
> Although we of course have many APL keyboards in the IBM APL development
> group, I wanted one for my personal use. I bought one several years ago
> from www.pckeyboard.com and it's terrific. It has the Selectric feel, came
> with APL characters engraved on the keytops, and has removable keycaps. As
> I recall, I paid under 100 USD.
>
> I certainly would not want vendors to include a keyboard with their
> interpreters. I already have many more keyboards than I need and I don't
> want another one each time I buy a new release. I also don't want to pay
> any price increase to offset the increase cost to the vendors.
>
> David Liebtag
> IBM APL Products and Services
>
>
>
Hello David,
~19 years ago, I purchased an IBM PC AT for personal use.
When the APL key caps were made available, I modified the IBM PC AT KB
accordingly.
This is the KB I am still using, still here after 19 years.
With time, I no more have the need for the APL chars to be visible, but
as long as the KB works, I will continue to use this KB for 2 reasons :
it is somehow esthetic with the APL chars engraved in red, and this
triggers questions from visitors which are gladly answered.
Gilbert
| |
| Charles Richmond 2006-05-28, 6:57 pm |
| David Liebtag wrote:
>
> Although we of course have many APL keyboards in the IBM APL development
> group, I wanted one for my personal use. I bought one several years ago
> from www.pckeyboard.com and it's terrific. It has the Selectric feel, came
> with APL characters engraved on the keytops, and has removable keycaps. As
> I recall, I paid under 100 USD.
>
> I certainly would not want vendors to include a keyboard with their
> interpreters. I already have many more keyboards than I need and I don't
> want another one each time I buy a new release. I also don't want to pay
> any price increase to offset the increase cost to the vendors.
>
How about including just key *caps* with their interpreters???
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| David Liebtag 2006-05-28, 6:57 pm |
| Charles Richmond wrote:
> How about including just key *caps* with their interpreters???
I've acquired about a half dozen computers in the last 3 or 4 years. They
all came with keyboards. None of the keyboards had replaceable key caps. I
suspect that very few modern keyboards do.
David Liebtag
| |
| Don Wiss 2006-05-28, 6:57 pm |
| On Sun, 28 May 2006, David Liebtag <liebtag@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>I've acquired about a half dozen computers in the last 3 or 4 years. They
>all came with keyboards. None of the keyboards had replaceable key caps. I
>suspect that very few modern keyboards do.
Certainly not when keyboards sell for $15! I have three Model M keyboards
that I use. Home, office, and spare. None have APL key caps. I manage.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
| |
| James J. Weinkam 2006-05-29, 3:57 am |
| David Liebtag wrote:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I've acquired about a half dozen computers in the last 3 or 4 years. They
> all came with keyboards. None of the keyboards had replaceable key caps. I
> suspect that very few modern keyboards do.
>
Are you sure of this? I have never seen a computer keyboard where you couldn't
carefully snap out the keys and put them back.
That's not the problem.
The real problem is that there are zillions of models and no two are exactly
alike, so what keycaps do you supply?
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-05-29, 3:57 am |
| James J. Weinkam wrote:
> Are you sure of this? I have never seen a computer keyboard where you couldn't
> carefully snap out the keys and put them back.
I occassionally do this without problems; however, this requires the
removal of the stem of the key. The IBM keycaps are more like a sleeve
that slips over the stem. The caps can be removed without disturbing
the stem beneath; my box came with a plastic tool for this purpose.
> The real problem is that there are zillions of models and no two are exactly
> alike, so what keycaps do you supply?
On top of the hybrid models (as you say, no two are alike), you have
two additional problems: the typewriter keys layout is locale specific
as are the APL keys which are vendor specific.
My thinking is that this is a vendor problem (who are free to
collaborate and source their keyboards from a single supplier, but with
their own customisation) who should make a replacement APL keyboard
available as an inexpensive option.
An APL keyboard would have new recruits into the APL fold and make APL
visible. This can only be good for APL.
The technology for producing the keycaps is hardly cutting edge, and
acquisition via the Internet is a reality. Is the real issue the lack
of will on the part of APL vendors?
| |
|
| 1. If you switch to J, you can use a set of readily available ASCII
stickers. 8^}
2. My own trouble is usually not the "where is the iota?" problem.
Rather, it's
"Why do I have to use ALT-i to get iota on APL+Linux, and CTRL-i to get
it on Dyaog?" I like ALT-i, but the Dyalog Linux version won't let me
reprogram
the keyboard to make ALT-i work. To be fair, I haven't tried tinkering
APL+Linux
to make it work the other way...
So, the problem for me is not keycaps, but different layous from
different
vendors, not to mention different {quad}av and different character
sets.
3. Oh, and the need to type "1E4" instead of "1e4" and {quad}AV instead
of {quad}av., and the like.
Bob
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-05-29, 6:57 pm |
|
rbe wrote:
> 1. If you switch to J, you can use a set of readily available ASCII
> stickers. 8^}
Amd then your death wish comes true: you drown in aphhabet soup.
| |
| Ted Edwards 2006-05-29, 6:57 pm |
| TaliesinSoft wrote:
> I started using APL in the Fall of 1969 on an IBM Selectric based terminal.
> Since then I have used APL on a vast variety of terminals and personal
> computers. Interestingly I have never ever felt the need for APL specific
> keyboards or stickies or such. It only took me a very short time to memorize
> which keys and/or options I needed to press to produce a given APL glyph. My
> own opinion is that stickies and such only create an unneeded dependency.
I'm with you on that, Jim. My first access to APL was in Summer of
1967. I found that by the time I had used a symbol enough to have a
half decent idea of what it was for, I had memorized the keyboard location.
However, as I became involved in other programming and uses I found an
easier way. Jay Weinkam and I designed our own layout (for APL2) using
the following rules:
1: If a character is present on the non-APL keyboard, it should
remain in its usual position.
2: If a character is present as <Shift>-<key> on the default APL2
keyboard, it should be moved to <Alt>-<key> on the unified
keyboard unless this conflicts with assumption 1.
3: The single and double line box drawing characters should be
available as <Ctrl>-<key> for a conveniently grouped, reasonably
mnemonic set of keys.
4: The characters that were present as <Alt>-<1-0> should move to
<Ctrl>-<1-0> to avoid conflict with 2.
5: The remaining APL2 printable characters should be placed as
mnemonically as possible as <Ctrl>-<key>.
Ted
| |
| J. Clarke 2006-05-30, 7:56 am |
| Ted Edwards wrote:
> TaliesinSoft wrote:
>
> I'm with you on that, Jim. My first access to APL was in Summer of
> 1967. I found that by the time I had used a symbol enough to have a
> half decent idea of what it was for, I had memorized the keyboard
> location.
>
> However, as I became involved in other programming and uses I found an
> easier way. Jay Weinkam and I designed our own layout (for APL2) using
> the following rules:
> 1: If a character is present on the non-APL keyboard, it should
> remain in its usual position.
>
> 2: If a character is present as <Shift>-<key> on the default APL2
> keyboard, it should be moved to <Alt>-<key> on the unified
> keyboard unless this conflicts with assumption 1.
>
> 3: The single and double line box drawing characters should be
> available as <Ctrl>-<key> for a conveniently grouped, reasonably
> mnemonic set of keys.
>
> 4: The characters that were present as <Alt>-<1-0> should move to
> <Ctrl>-<1-0> to avoid conflict with 2.
>
> 5: The remaining APL2 printable characters should be placed as
> mnemonically as possible as <Ctrl>-<key>.
FWIW, I never applied the stickies that came with my APL*PLUS/PC or any of
the upgrades. What I did do, finally, about a year ago, was on a whim get
one of the APL keyboards from Unicomp--the reason I did that was that I
managed to spill a whole can of soda in my Model M and while it was drying
out after going through the dishwasher I needed a keyboard, and the price
on the APL keyboard wasn't a whole lot more than the regular one, so I
decided what the heck--I'd always _wanted_ one more as a curio than as a
working tool. I used it for about 6 months (until I spilled soda in
_it_--40 years without spilling anything in a keyboard and now two in a
row--maybe age is impairing my coordination more than I expected) and now
I'm back to the "regular" keyboard while the APL keyboard dries out.
> Ted
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
| |
| Ibeam2000 2006-05-30, 6:57 pm |
| Don't forget also that as far as keyboards are concerned, the world is
still a pretty big place. Many locales have their own keyboards which
may differ slightly or wildly from the US "norm". This further
complicates the engraved keytop issue. As far as use of APL is
concerned, consider that every Western (and certainly Eastern) European
country has its own keyboard, with individual ideas as to the correct
placement of characters. The normal example is the French "AZERTY"
keyboard. Some if not most German-speaking countries use a "QUERTZ"
keyboard. Some locales implement a dead key approach to accents, not
entirely unlike some old typewriters. Type the accent first, then the
letter.
All of these details need to make their way into APL keyboard support
for a given locale.
For a good time, try the "US International" keyboard available in
everything from MS NT and up. Here a lot of characters, like comma,
double quote, single quote, circumflex, grave, etc. are dead keys. If
you want a C with the cedille (for French) type comma then c. For a
comma by itself, type a space after the comma. The overstrike idea
from 2741 days is not at all dead. Haven't tried Polish or Turkish
examples.
I use one of those Microsoft ergonomic keyboards to reduce the
likelihood of carpal tunnel syndrome. Here some of the keys,
especially toward the centre of the keyboard, are wider. Don't think
APL keytops will ever be available.
In general, I think a given APL system should:
1. Support the locale as best as possible with the keyboard of the
user's choice (classic, union, unified, maybe flip upper and lower
case), and
2. Offer a pop-up window an alternative entry method, for those who
don't care for the hunt and peck method - the Dyalog Pocket PC stylus
keyboard is a good start.
Anyone remember the HDS terminals? I remember users who would load up
their function keys with things like []IO := 1 and goto 1 + []LC. Even
things like this could be handled in a pop up window.
I personally do feel that the APL keyboard issue stunted growh of APL
usage in the early days and  ly, now that modern printer, font, and
window technology has largely eliminated the problem (except maybe in
some browsers), it's still a problem when it comes to entry.
| |
| Morten Kromberg 2006-06-01, 3:56 am |
| I spent a little time looking into this issue, with the idea that
Dyalog might provide a new (physical) keyboard. However, I found it to
be a bit of a showstopper that I will need a US APL keyboard, a UK APL
keyboard, and then Danish Swedish Finnish French German Italian Czech
etc etc - all slightly different. Japanese and Chinese? I ran out of
steam at this point.
What we have done is add Kai Jagers keyboard viewer/editor to version
11.0 of Dyalog APL, which will be available soon.
To complicate matters, we will add Unicode support to our product in
the next year, and Microsoft (and perhaps other vendors?) are providing
tools to edit customer input mappings for Unicode. Given that the
technology is going to change, we may decide that it is time to revise
the keboard to remove some of the duplicates which exist. For example,
there is no reason to keep tilde on ctrl or alt T, given that it is
painted on most keyboards in another position.
If it becomes easy to make customer keyboards we may see a lot of
different new ones, we'll have to see how things pan out. In summary,
we decided that this is a bad time to make new physical keyboards, we
will revisit the issue when we see how the Unicode work impacts APL
users.
Morten Kromberg
Dyalog Ltd.
RAV wrote:
> Don Kelly wrote:
>
> Or, in APL+Win at least, when you forget where a key is you can run the
> built-in user-defined command ]kb which displays the APL+Win keyboard.
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
| |
| phil chastney 2006-06-01, 7:56 am |
| Morten Kromberg wrote:
> I spent a little time looking into this issue, with the idea that
> Dyalog might provide a new (physical) keyboard. However, I found it to
> be a bit of a showstopper that I will need a US APL keyboard, a UK APL
> keyboard, and then Danish Swedish Finnish French German Italian Czech
> etc etc - all slightly different. Japanese and Chinese? I ran out of
> steam at this point.
>
> What we have done is add Kai Jagers keyboard viewer/editor to version
> 11.0 of Dyalog APL, which will be available soon.
>
> To complicate matters, we will add Unicode support to our product in
> the next year, and Microsoft (and perhaps other vendors?) are providing
> tools to edit customer input mappings for Unicode. Given that the
> technology is going to change, we may decide that it is time to revise
> the keboard to remove some of the duplicates which exist. For example,
> there is no reason to keep tilde on ctrl or alt T, given that it is
> painted on most keyboards in another position.
-- are you sure that's a duplicate?
the ASCII tilde is probably there as a diacritic marking,
but it's purpose is by no means clear, so Unicode has defined
separate characters for the combining mark, for the raised tilde,
and for the centred tilde (as well as some others)
you are, of course, at liberty to to use context to interpret
a given keystroke as meaning any of these characters, but if
you want the user's font(s) to display a centred tilde for
the APL primitive, you might prefer to send the user's
terminal the right codepoint
there again, maybe you wouldn't -- the only divantages
I can see are that listings look a little messier, and textual
analysis of the code is a little less reliable
regards . . . /phil
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-06-01, 6:56 pm |
| I find this APL keyboard issue absolutely facinating. My keyboard has
48 typewriter keys: the APL symbols are on Alt + Key or Alt+Shift +
Key. So I might remember 48x4 locations (lower + Upper + all APL keys)
with 50% (or 96 ) of the keys unmarked. A number of respondents have
also confirmed that they do not need the APL markings.
I am left wondering why buttons on remote control units, in lifts,
drawers in filing cabinets, shelves in supermarkets (the list is
endless) are all marked for our hindrance.
Surely we can learn that the third button in the second column of the
panel of buttons in the lift is the floor we want. Surely, even
strangers/visitors using such a lift will 'know' this too. Won't they?
| |
| Dick Bowman 2006-06-02, 3:57 am |
| "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> wrote in news:1149200705.610643.266280
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> [... deleted ...]
>
> Surely we can learn that the third button in the second column of the
> panel of buttons in the lift is the floor we want. Surely, even
> strangers/visitors using such a lift will 'know' this too. Won't they?
>
>
Actually - for any appliance you use a lot - I doubt very much that you
read the legend.
In passing - I think we could usefully consider the message we send out if
we talk about "a special keyboard for APL". Would it be more positive to
say "APL uses your keyboard in a special way"?
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-06-02, 3:57 am |
|
Dick Bowman wrote:
> Actually - for any appliance you use a lot - I doubt very much that you read the legend.
However, before you begin to use it a lot, you have to start. It would
be a hopeless quest without the legend. Consider the microwave:
ordinarily, you might use it just for heating, duration 1 minute: you
may well programe this without thinking or looking.Howeer, when you
want to defrost 0.875kg of some product, you will ot only need the
legends on the keys bit also the manual.
In the APL context, some APL symbols are used more often than others
and when you want to use a symbol thatyou have not used or used
irregularly, you will need the legend. APL beginners need the legend.
To take your argument to the extreme, once you use APL a lot, you do
not need the help files (or even the manuals) but they are there in
case you do want to.
> In passing - I think we could usefully consider the message we send out if we talk about "a special keyboard for APL". Would it be more positive to say "APL uses your keyboard in a special way"?
I prefer to think of an APL engraved keypard as follows: APL uses your
keyboard in a special way: the engraved symbols are non-intrusive as
far as your other uses of the keyboard are concerned.
| |
| Randy MacDonald 2006-06-02, 6:57 pm |
| "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> wrote in news:1149200705.610643.266280
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I find this APL keyboard issue absolutely facinating. ...
As do I. I've been fascinated with virtual keyboards ever since I saw demos
on Xerox machines back in the early 1980's.
I'll reserve my comments for after I read
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/...dsonWindows.pdf
It seems like it will be a good source of ideas.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\/| Randy A MacDonald | APL: If you can say it, it's done.. (ram)
|/\| ramacd@nbnet.nb.ca |
|\ | |If you cannot describe what you are doing
BSc(Math) UNBF'83 şas a process, you don't know what you're doing.
Sapere Aude | - W. E. Deming
Natural Born APL'er | Demo website: http://156.34.87.191/
-----------------------------------------------------(INTP)----{ gnat }-
| |
|
|
| AA2e72E 2006-06-02, 6:57 pm |
| Excellent references on the keyboard issue from Randy & David.
I too will be exploring the ideas; however, I have one reservation that
may or may not matter:
If I become too accustomed to my 'custom' keyboard, I will become
highly vulnerable if I should sit at another locale keyboard. I know
that this becomes a serious issue from personal experience. For Oracle
databases, the SQL interface is SQL*PLUS but this is very much like the
DOS command prompt. I started to use JB SQL instead as it provides a
GUI & all the functionality of SQL*PLUS that I have ever used. Having
been overcome by an intense feeling of ineptitude when sitting at a PC
withut JB SQL, I reverted to SQL*PLUS as (unlike JB SQL) it is
available on all PCs with Oracle client.
| |
|
|
| Morten Kromberg 2006-06-03, 7:56 am |
| phil chastney wrote:
> -- are you sure that's a duplicate?
> the ASCII tilde is probably there as a diacritic marking,
> but it's purpose is by no means clear, so Unicode has defined
> separate characters for the combining mark, for the raised tilde,
> and for the centred tilde (as well as some others)
Well, I believe it IS a duplicate in most current APL systems, they
only have one tilde. Whether we decide to have one or two when we are
all typing Unicode is a different matter, this is something we need to
revive some sort of standards committe to discuss, perhaps...
Morten
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-06-03, 7:56 am |
| Morten Kromberg wrote:
> we need to revive some sort of standards committe to discuss, perhaps...
I expect you have in mind the vendors as committee members? As a mere
user, I would like to see this happen:
Start with APL2 APL keyboard the standard: at the very least we have
the keycaps); then
1. Where there is a conflict with another vendor (there is between APL2
and APL+Win), keep the APL2 position & relocate the other vendor's
symbol.
2. Include all vendors' symbols, including the APLX 'box arrow' and
Dyalog 'Commute' symbols.
Underneath, use any technology Unicode or other (even vendor specific
adaptations, including different font etc.): it does not mattter to
users.
Then, we can sit in from of any APL interpreter and the APL symbols are
where, us users, (can learn to) expect them to be. You would need a
font that would work across vendors.
All other things being equal, we would have a truely UNIFIED keyboard,
even if we do not have a unified atomic vector ... but it would be
missing a golden opportunity not to unify the atomic vector too.
I don't know, but it might be possible for IBM to issue another version
of the keycaps for the UNIFIED keyboard; worth asking!
| |
| Morten Kromberg 2006-06-04, 7:57 am |
| AA2e72E wrote:
> I expect you have in mind the vendors as committee members? As a mere
> user, I would like to see this happen... <snipped>
I haven't thought about how the committee should be put together...
Obviously I want to be on it and apart from that think it should be as
small as possible ;-)
I'm sure a committee will invite the community to review any proposal
before adopting it. However: I fear that a single keyboard layout is
not possible - because different human language keyboards make
different sets of characters visible. For example, on my Danish
keyboard, I can type ALL of the following letters: @ =A3 $ =A4 =80 % & =E6
=F8 =F6 =E5 =FC =E9 =F2 { } =A7 =BD (and a whole lot more, many of which are
not available on a UK or US keyboard). Some of these are used for APL
programming, and more of them may be used in the future.
I think those of us who come from non-English speaking countries will
insist that any letter which can be typed on the basic keyboard for our
language should be available using the same keystrokes in the the
keyboard we use for doing APL programming.
Morten
| |
| AA2e72E 2006-06-04, 6:57 pm |
| Morten Kromberg wrote:
> ... I can type ALL of the following letters: @ =A3 $ =A4 =80 % & =E6 =F8=
=F6 =E5 =FC =E9 =F2 { } =A7 =BD (and a whole lot more, many of which are n=
ot available on a UK or US keyboard). Some of these are used for APL progra=
mming, and more of them may be used in the future...
Morten, is there by chance a Dyalog.J in the pipeline?
> I think those of us who come from non-English speaking countries will in=
sist that any letter which can be typed on the basic keyboard for our lang=
uage should be available using the same keystrokes in the the keyboard we u=
se for doing APL programming.
The APL symbols that appear on the typewriter keys include ^ ( ) ~ [ ]
; : ' " | < > ? / \ and (with APL+Win) they are usable as APL keys.
I think, I would prefer to see duplicates (i.e same character on the
typewriter and APL keyboards) in order to keep the location of the APL
symbols static on the topology of a 102-key keyboard irrespective of
the locale dictating the location of the typewriter symbols.e.g. the
APL roll (?) should be on the first key to the right of the tab key, Q
on a QWERTY keyboard, A on an AZERTY keyboard
Also. I would like to see new symbols rather than the adoption of
existing typewriter symbols used for language extensions in the future.
| |
| Daniel and Stacey Maldonado 2006-06-17, 8:01 am |
| We are friends with the people who own Hooleon. They are really
fantastic people who go out of their way personally and professionally
to meet the needs of people who are struggling with lack of proper
tools to do what they need to get done. They gave me a discount code
and said I could share it as I see fit if I think it might help someone
out. I don't know alot about their products but I do know they have
great specialty computer hardware and usage solutions. They have
keyboard stickers, braille keyboards, keyboards in different languages,
you name it, they sell it! Take a look at their website:
www.hooleon.com and enter referral # 0lz77ov1 - this will give you a
discount of $5.00 on your first order. I hope they can help you!
Stacey
Doug White wrote:
> Keywords:
> In article <1148671873.821772.17460@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AA2e72E" <AA2e72E@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Stickers work very well, and are a lot less expensive than a whole nwe
> keyboard. Just in case anyone is in the market for a set, I recently
> checked and the outfit I used to get them from still has them available.
> The company is Hooleon Corp (http://www.hooleon.com/)
>
> The part number for the APL keyboard stickers is 223-312-0132 and they
> are $14.95 each. Quantity or dealer discounts are available.
>
> The sales person I contacted is Sandy Doucet. She can be reached by
> phone at 1-800-937-1337-Ext 203 or by email at sandyd@hooleon.com
>
> I have no connection with Hooleon except as a satisfied customer (many
> years ago). Their stickers are similar to the ones STSC used to provide
> with their PC versions of APL. The Hooleon stickers are designed to
> support both STSC and IBM keyboard layouts, with color coded symbols to
> indicate Alt, Ctrl or Shift key use.
>
> Doug White
| |
| J. Clarke 2006-06-17, 8:01 am |
| Daniel and Stacey Maldonado wrote:
> We are friends with the people who own Hooleon. They are really
> fantastic people who go out of their way personally and professionally
> to meet the needs of people who are struggling with lack of proper
> tools to do what they need to get done. They gave me a discount code
> and said I could share it as I see fit if I think it might help someone
> out. I don't know alot about their products but I do know they have
> great specialty computer hardware and usage solutions. They have
> keyboard stickers, braille keyboards, keyboards in different languages,
> you name it, they sell it! Take a look at their website:
> www.hooleon.com and enter referral # 0lz77ov1 - this will give you a
> discount of $5.00 on your first order. I hope they can help you!
Searching their site on keyword "APL" comes up with no hits.
[color=darkred]
> Stacey
>
> Doug White wrote:
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
|
|
|
|
|