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| Author |
newbie needs help comparing APL versus J versus K!
|
|
| oxonian 2004-03-19, 8:22 pm |
| Hi,
I'm interested in re-learning APL for hobby programming and maybe as
an extra tool for my work (physics). I use macs and PCs, various OSes.
--aside:
I say re-learning because I did learn the basics once while doing work
experience for a company in Frankfurt 15 years ago. I remember I
really enjoyed the language and found it very graceful. They ran their
APL on a shared central machine that (I was told) never executed less
than one line of APL - so of course I wrote a on-liner for the
mandelbrot set. All great fun!
--
ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
(discovering to my disapointment that they don't use special
characters, but oh well!), however I haven't found a really helpful
comparision of the three. In particular:
(a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
right choice as a newbie!
(a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
languages perhaps.
(b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
of users and enthusiasts?
(c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
vendor specific products...
(d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
APL for example.
Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
much apppreciated!
| |
| Ray Cannon 2004-03-19, 8:23 pm |
| Since no-one has responded, Ill try to help.
I am an APL fan. I have had difficulty with J, and minimum use of K.
So I am biased. I am also not well informed on J,K and APL other than
Dyalog.
"oxonian" <oxonian@mac.com> wrote in message
news:fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
> I'm interested in re-learning APL for hobby programming and maybe as
> an extra tool for my work (physics). I use macs and PCs, various OSes.
>
> --aside:
> I say re-learning because I did learn the basics once while doing work
> experience for a company in Frankfurt 15 years ago. I remember I
> really enjoyed the language and found it very graceful. They ran their
> APL on a shared central machine that (I was told) never executed less
> than one line of APL - so of course I wrote a on-liner for the
> mandelbrot set. All great fun!
> --
(On my PocketPC with Dyalog PocketAPL, my mandelbrot program runs in 10 sec
after tw ing, took6 mins when I first wrote it)
>
> ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
> these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
> (discovering to my disapointment that they don't use special
> characters, but oh well!), however I haven't found a really helpful
> comparision of the three. In particular:
>
> (a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
> language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
> definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
> one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
> right choice as a newbie!
APL has move on a lot in th last 15 years, so it has move away from J, just
as J has added new structures (eg Forks and Trains). K is getting smaller
and tighter (and faster),and has dicionaries. But all three require the same
"mind set".
> (a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
> mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
> uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
> languages perhaps.
K is very good for processing vast amounts of data very quickly.
J ha some usefull features for physics (complex number and infinity I think)
Only IBM APL2 (of the APLs) has complex numbers.
> (b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
> of users and enthusiasts?
In acadimic circles J has overtaken the place that APL held.
K has a small but growing user base.
I think APL has the largest world wide following, but the J user group is
more active.
> (c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
> reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
> vendor specific products...
J and APL support modern gui.
K has droppe its GUI in the latest release.
> (d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
> available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
> APL for example.
I have only experiance of Windows (no mac) but calls to the API are stright
forward from many APLs and J. Dont think K can call MS API as it run "under
DOS".
>
> Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
> much apppreciated!
Ray
| |
| Stefano Lanzavecchia 2004-03-19, 8:23 pm |
|
> I have only experiance of Windows (no mac) but calls to the API are
stright
> forward from many APLs and J. Dont think K can call MS API as it run
"under
> DOS".
K runs in Win32. Although it runs as a console application it's a Win32
application and could, in principle, access all the Win32 GUI via the API
calls. In practice, though, The tendency is to use K as a faceless server
and let a client with a full blown GUI (written in your favourite language:
Java, C#, VB, VB.NET, Python and so on) communicate via TCP/IP sockets with
the K server.
--
WildHeart'2k4
| |
| Steve Rogers 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| oxonian@mac.com (oxonian) wrote in message news:<fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com>...
>
> (a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
> language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
> definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
> one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
> right choice as a newbie!
All three deal with bulk data, arrays for APL and J, and lists of
lists for K. They have primitives which simplify manipulating such
data and programs in these languages tend to avoid conventional loops.
They facilitate "programming in the large" rather than at the level
of the individual datum. J and K use ASCII instead of APL characters.
I find their ASCII less intuitive and attractive than APL charcters,
but this does avoid keyboard, display, and printing issues, in
particular it's much more email friendly. I find K's ASCII mapping to
primitives to be more elegant than J's.
> (a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
> mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
> uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
> languages perhaps.
All three are good choices for matrix manipulation. K doesn't have a
primitive data type for complex numbers which would be a limitation
for some physics problems.
> (b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
> of users and enthusiasts?
The J mailing list seems the most active to me.
> (c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
> reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
> vendor specific products...
Don't know what you consider a 'modern' GUI, but J's works for me.
The K GUI is being deprecated in the newest version as it's being
focused at high end server applications.
> (d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
> available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
> APL for example.
>
> Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
> much apppreciated!
Dick Bowman has a comparison of collection oriented languages (and VB)
that you might find helpful at:
http://www.apl.demon.co.uk/aplandj/...es/ppl2002.html
| |
| Dick Bowman 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
|
"Steve Rogers" <steve@shrogers.com> wrote in message
news:78eb2351.0403210620.6acd40d@posting.google.com...
> oxonian@mac.com (oxonian) wrote in message
news:<fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com>...
[... deleted ...]
[color=darkred]
>
> Dick Bowman has a comparison of collection oriented languages (and VB)
> that you might find helpful at:
> http://www.apl.demon.co.uk/aplandj/...es/ppl2002.html
I've just had a look at my tetchy diatribe of 2002 - I may update it again
at some point. I've stayed with APL/W as implementation of preference, J
rather withered away for me (but may be beginning to stage a minor
comeback) - there's a lot to be said for J if your interests are
computational rather than presentational.
APLX (from MicroAPL) is a contender now, especially in Version 2 form. It's
both simpler and less expensive than APL/W - which might also mean that you
can do less with it (no fooling around with .NET interfaces, for example).
Best thing to do is pick up a free/inexpensive implementation or two and
look at the general flavour ( ly, apart from J, the good stuff costs).
| |
| Kerry Liles 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
|
"Dick Bowman" <bowman@apl.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c3m8mt$5au$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> [... deleted ...]
> Best thing to do is pick up a free/inexpensive implementation or two and
> look at the general flavour (ly, apart from J, the good stuff costs).
>
>
That seems to be absolutely the case! After a near 30 year haitus from APL, I
was looking around for something that would run under Windows (sigh) - something
not that fancy but functional and the pricing structure seems rather astonishing
to me (read: outrageous). There seems to be no distinction between "for personal
use" and "for enterprise development". Oh well, I guess that model hasn't quite
made it through to some folks.
Thanks for the link...
Kerry Liles (long ago IPSA zoo)
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "Ray Cannon" <ray_cannon@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<5%q5c.39$ly4.6@newsfe1-win>...
> Only IBM APL2 (of the APLs) has complex numbers.
IPSA, J, SAX and I am sure Dyalog too - all have complex numbers
| |
| Ray Cannon 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "Bj?rn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote in message
news:56da45cc.0403221150.77cdf601@posting.google.com...
> "Ray Cannon" <ray_cannon@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:<5%q5c.39$ly4.6@newsfe1-win>...
>
> IPSA, J, SAX and I am sure Dyalog too - all have complex numbers
I have no working knowledge of IPSA and SAX, so you may well be right there,
BUT as at version 10.0.3, Dyalog does NOT have Complex Numbers.
And please dont quote out of context, I started off by saying[color=darkred]
and then later[color=darkred]
think)[color=darkred]
Anyway, within comp.lan.apl, when discussing
"newbi needs help comparing APL versus J versus K",
I for one, do not consider "J" to be one of the "APLs",
It is certainly not ISO standard APL.
Can anyone say how many of the 60 odd APLs do support complex numbers?
(For an old list see "Punctuation in APL" by Joseph de Kerf in Vector Vol6
No2)
Ray
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Kerry Liles wrote:
>
> That seems to be absolutely the case! After a near 30 year haitus from APL, I
> was looking around for something that would run under Windows (sigh) - something
> not that fancy but functional and the pricing structure seems rather astonishing
> to me (read: outrageous). There seems to be no distinction between "for personal
> use" and "for enterprise development". Oh well, I guess that model hasn't quite
> made it through to some folks.
Yeah, I'm persuaded that they don't really want people to
use it so we aren't. Witness the vitality of this list. Not.
I hang about in the hope that if IBM ever gets their
collective head out of their collective ass on this I'll at
least know about it.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
|
| Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<c3ock90b68@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>
> Yeah, I'm persuaded that they don't really want people to
> use it so we aren't. Witness the vitality of this list. Not.
>
> I hang about in the hope that if IBM ever gets their
> collective head out of their collective ass on this I'll at
> least know about it.
>
>
> Bob
I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm still using pcapl2 for dos. They've
had their head there for so long...
I've looked at other alternatives but I've a large collection of
apl2 workspaces that I'd need to convert.
J seems a closed cult to me. Last time I looked you couldn't
get to their mailing list achive without some type of registration.
Also found no way to convert apl workspaces.
So I keep an old dos machine running and keep hoping that an open-
source apl will appear. Not holding my breath though.
I tried sax for linux; found it large, very different; no apl2ws
conversion.
All this seems a shame to me; apl started out very open. There
was a try at standardization. Then things diverged and the open-
ness slowly died. Then everyone got captivated by the gui's.
If I was 35 rather than 65, and didn't have years of work in
workspaces, I'd look real hard a K.
Marv in a somewhat glum mood in Lexington, KY
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| MP wrote:
>
> If I was 35 rather than 65, and didn't have years of work in
> workspaces, I'd look real hard a K.
>
Yeah, I'll be 60 this fall. I'd love to know the mean age
of the dozen or so APL programmers still around. No damn
excuse for that. Kids should be learning it in grade school
and would be were it not for where those heads have been all
these years. No light there I understand.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| Dick Bowman 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
|
"MP" <smoak@mis.net> wrote in message
news:bb018685.0403241831.2ebb2d83@posting.google.com...
[... deleted ..]
>
> I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm still using pcapl2 for dos. They've
> had their head there for so long...
>
> I've looked at other alternatives but I've a large collection of
> apl2 workspaces that I'd need to convert.
>
> [... deleted ...]
It might be worth taking a look at APL2 Workstation (if you haven't
already) - there's a downloadable version that says you get 4 hours free
usage (I'm still at 1% of the allowance) and it may be possible for it to
read "pcapl2 for dos" workspaces or ATF files. That would get you somewhere
reasonably modern - from there APLX is the least expensive migration path I
can think of.
For an off-the-wall idea, how about Dyalog APL on a PDA - which is
inexpensive once you have the PDA (and it can be made to read ATFs)?
But I've been saying for years that I'd like to see "personal use" APL at a
comparable pricing level to scalar languages - I guess I don't have the
required insight into vendor pricing models (they may well know a lot that I
don't).
| |
| Stephen Taylor 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| About 80 of that dozen APL programmers attended the Dyalog APL conference in
East Horsley, Surrey, last September; a similar number, I believe were in
Naples, FL, for the APL2000 conference.
Kx Systems was in London last month and ran a 2-day intro; 20-30 people
there, many from investment banks and without grey hair. Youth and money is
powerful fuel.
Whitney introduced features new in his impending K4 release and invited us
to guess how they worked. Only APL programmers guessed right. You might find
K more accessible than you thought.
A similar number turned up for a 1/2 day intro as part of the British APL
Assn's 20th birthday celebrations for Vector the following day, including
students from Loughborough University and the University of Bolzano in
Italy.
Last w NYC Dyalog APL Users Group introduced a class of new programmers
who'd learned APL on their own time. You can follow the story at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dyalogusers and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BFGame.
But to address what I take to be your main point -- why did APL usage
decline, and is there any prospect of change?
Two yaers ago I returned to programming after a 15-year gap, thrilled to
find the current APLs embodying earlier dreams, horrified to find the
community shrivelled.
IMHO the story behind this is fairly simple. It has two threads. One is that
PC spreadsheets replaced APL as the preferred tool for personal computing,
probably rightly. The other is that APL got generally deprecated for
software development work.
Irritating mavericks like me, who ran rings around conventional developers
and bragged about it, got squeezed out during the professionalisation of IT
in the 80s and 90s. The principal battleground was 'methodology': the
disciplines and promises of Software Engineering (SE) rolled over our
informal development practices, regardless of our productivity.
The cheques drawn by SE bounced. But by then the damage had been done: APL
was out and its legendary productivity a fading memory. Developers do the
best they can now with Java and OOP.
There is a Reformation. It has been running nearly a decade under the
banners of Agile Development and Extreme Programming (XP). It's how you
would run an APL project if you didn't have APL.
Studying agile development has helped me understand the relationship between
APL and its productivity. I (we) used to brag about how short the code was
and how quickly we could write it. When you look at a SE development project
and see how small a part of the effort is coding, you get the force of the
argument that faster coding doesn't justify the costs of 'alien' technology,
blah, blah blah.
XP turned this all around, embracing the incremental development that always
characterised APL projects, and making coding THE principal activity. XP
wins by dropping cumbersome and unreliable analysis, specification and
design activities, substituting short development cycles with customers on
hand to answer questions and give feedback. (Does any of this sound
familiar?)
Now it's clear where APL's coding speed pays off. XP programmers using Java
consult their customers frequently, keeping communication face-to-face and
showing customers the results of their choices. APL coding is so fast I do
at least half of mine with the customer beside me because I need feedback
every minute or so.
THIS is how we strip cost and time out of software development, by
eliminating formal communications: memos, meetings, specifications,
signoffs, blah blah blah. SE people I work with behave as if formal
communication is reliable and free. In reality it's expensive and
unreliable. Smart engineers minimise the use of expensive, unreliable
components.
There's a strong case to be made for APL (the APLs?) as THE Agile
Programming Language. I went to XP2003 last year to begin making that case.
Sadly, while overhauling www.vector.org.uk this winter, I missed the window
for XP2004. There are other agile conferences and other voices who could
join in. With all your experience, yours too perhaps? If you are interested,
Kent Beck's book "Extreme Programming Explained" is a good start. You can
find it through the Agile Development links at www.5jt.com/links.html.
In the world of commerce (money if not youth), my colleagues and I are
making progress in a large account with our own Reformation. Like so many
others, this client has for years had an exit strategy for its APL systems.
(In theory at least. In practice, the cost of replacing them with 'strategic
technology' meant nothing happened.) The company is now so beset by the
costs of conventional development that it is moving much of it to India. Our
'tactical' systems development is getting board-level attention. This is a
winnable game.
Back to education. I found an opening for J in the teaching of mathematics
in schools for 'gifted and talented' children. I didn't put in the work it
would take to open this seam, but it's still an opportunity. Now a little
more commercial money is starting to trickle in to BAA, we might be able to
get something happening. If APL and education interests you, consider
absorbing J and making your experience available. (You do have to register
at jsoftware.com, but the interpreter downloads for free, the study
materials are excellent and the J Forum is active and helpful.)
No one wants APL, but so many people want what APL makes possible.
Stephen Taylor
sjt@vector.org.uk
"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:c3tvmf01ctf@enews3.newsguy.com...
> MP wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, I'll be 60 this fall. I'd love to know the mean age
> of the dozen or so APL programmers still around. No damn
> excuse for that. Kids should be learning it in grade school
> and would be were it not for where those heads have been all
> these years. No light there I understand.
>
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein
| |
| Todd Marshall 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Stephen,
I think I'm getting close to what needs to be done.
http://WithGLEE.com
/Todd Marshall
Stephen Taylor wrote:
> About 80 of that dozen APL programmers attended the Dyalog APL conference in
> East Horsley, Surrey, last September; a similar number, I believe were in
> Naples, FL, for the APL2000 conference.
>
<SNIP>
> Back to education. I found an opening for J in the teaching of mathematics
> in schools for 'gifted and talented' children. I didn't put in the work it
> would take to open this seam, but it's still an opportunity. Now a little
> more commercial money is starting to trickle in to BAA, we might be able to
> get something happening. If APL and education interests you, consider
> absorbing J and making your experience available. (You do have to register
> at jsoftware.com, but the interpreter downloads for free, the study
> materials are excellent and the J Forum is active and helpful.)
>
> No one wants APL, but so many people want what APL makes possible.
>
> Stephen Taylor
> sjt@vector.org.uk
| |
| David Liebtag 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Post contains my opinion, not my employer's.
Once again people are complaining about the APL vendors' pricing policies
and claiming that other languages are cheaper. I'd like to just offer a few
facts:
From the Microsoft web site:
Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition $1,079
From the Borland web site:
C++ Builder 6 Professional $999.00
From the Sun Microsystems web site:
Sun ONE Studio 7, Enterprise Edition for Solaris $2995.00
Seems to me that the APL vendor's prices are right in the same ballpark as
the other language vendors' professional application development tools.
David Liebtag
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| David Liebtag wrote:
> Seems to me that the APL vendor's prices are right in the same ballpark as
> the other language vendors' professional application development tools.
>
Post contains my opinions and those of my employer since
they are one and the same.
Compare it to Matlab, APL's closest and hugely more
successful competitor. Yeah, you can take your profits on a
few high ticket accounts or a huge number of smaller ones.
IBM has made a very bad call in that regard IMHO.
It sure wasn't Ken's original vision to come out this way.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "Ray Cannon" <ray_cannon@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<QxK7c.800$Aa.14@newsfe2-gui.server.ntli.net>...
> It is certainly not ISO standard APL.
As far as I know then ISO standard APL is a very small subset of any
of the APLs
They deviate quite a lot from each other and I am not sure of what the
status of ISO standard APL is - if it is available in any one product
as a working product without extensions and secondly - if the APLs do
comply to the standard.
Who cares anyway.
Some people claim that the work in trying to create ISO standard APL
is what has hampered the development and use of APL.
I like APL in any form it comes with or without the gr letters.
I hope that Unicode - or is it the Unicorn - will increase the
possibility to get away from the character issue - I miss not being
able to use them for any serious work.
Until then J has the best position for growth and it has a very lively
community and none of the problems I know of in the other APLs - I do
not know all the other APLs nor their latest products.
www.jsoftware.com for info on this beautiful product.
| |
| Dick Bowman 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
|
"David Liebtag" <DavidLiebtag@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:1080233512.923150@jabba.vermontel.net...
> Post contains my opinion, not my employer's.
>
> Once again people are complaining about the APL vendors' pricing policies
> and claiming that other languages are cheaper. I'd like to just offer a
few
> facts:
>
> From the Microsoft web site:
>
> Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition $1,079
>
> From the Borland web site:
>
> C++ Builder 6 Professional $999.00
>
> From the Sun Microsystems web site:
>
> Sun ONE Studio 7, Enterprise Edition for Solaris $2995.00
>
> Seems to me that the APL vendor's prices are right in the same ballpark as
> the other language vendors' professional application development tools.
>
> David Liebtag
>
>
Which is fine if this is the market you are pitching at - but both Microsoft
and Borland also offer entry-level versions at significantly lower prices
(these can also be found on the respective web sites) - which presumably
opens other doors for them.
| |
| phil chastney 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "David Liebtag" <DavidLiebtag@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:1080233512.923150@jabba.vermontel.net...
> Post contains my opinion, not my employer's.
>
> Once again people are complaining about the APL vendors' pricing policies
> and claiming that other languages are cheaper. I'd like to just offer a
few :
> facts
>
> From the Microsoft web site:
>
> Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition $1,079
so VS is _advertised_ at $1,079 -- but who pays advertised prices?
VS Studio, SQL Server and Office are available to students, as a
package, for a little over £100
that's not such a good deal as the local crack dealers offer, mind, 'cos
they give the first coupla shots for free -- for much the same reasons
regards . . . /phil
| |
| phil chastney 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "Bj?rn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote in message
news:56da45cc.0403251436.2490b02@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
>
> Some people claim that the work in trying to create ISO standard APL
> is what has hampered the development and use of APL.
maybe they would, but they would be completely unjustified in so doing
the APL standard came after the event -- the major vendors already had
some variety of nested arrays announced or released, and (I'm told) were
not prepared to help any sort of standards effort which effectively labelled
their pet extensions "incompatible" or "non-standard"
I remember the collapse of AdLib, the first people to release a PC sound
card -- the reaction of one developer was, "Good! One less interface to
support" -- the memory haunts me as I watch Unix flavours disappearing
it is entirely possible that APL, like Unix, has suffered from having too
many variants out there, undermining confidence in their rivals, and
simultaneously undermining confidence in the market sector as a whole
if the user understands the product, then lots of choice is good for the
market (as with cars, for instance) -- if the user does not understand the
product, then too many differentiated offerings may lead the user into
adopting something completely different (or maybe nothing at all)
> I hope that Unicode - or is it the Unicorn - will increase the
> possibility to get away from the character issue - I miss not being
> able to use them for any serious work.
oh, I absolutely agree -- but I can't see it happening soon (or ever)
in the meantime, if your "serious work" involves database, what about K?
regards . . . /phil
| |
| David Liebtag 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Phil,
Workstation APL2 is available to educators for free through the IBM Scholars
Program. The educators can then redistribute the product to their students
also at no charge.
For more information see http://www.ibm.com/university/scholarsprogram
David Liebtag
IBM APL Products and Services
| |
| Richard Nabavi 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| "phil chastney" <phil@amadeus-info.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c4195i$ak0$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> VS Studio, SQL Server and Office are available to students, as a
> package, for a little over £100
>
> that's not such a good deal as the local crack dealers offer, mind, 'cos
> they give the first coupla shots for free -- for much the same reasons
>
Well, MicroAPL offers APLX Version 1.1 on Linux for free for personal
use, which gives a full APL interpreter very close the APL2 language
spec. and a modern GUI interface. I won't comment on whether it's
'for much the same reasons', but at least getting hooked on APL does
you no harm!
Richard
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| David Liebtag wrote:
> Phil,
>
> Workstation APL2 is available to educators for free through the IBM Scholars
> Program. The educators can then redistribute the product to their students
> also at no charge.
>
> For more information see http://www.ibm.com/university/scholarsprogram
>
This isn't an answer, it's a restrictive alternative and a
poor one. For a model that could revive APL see Matlab's.
Its success speaks for itself. They understand the crack
dealer's motivation (I hate to use that analogy, but it's
too apt not to.) To qualify as a student all that is
required is to state that you are and the only difference in
the product is the level of support. Basically none for the
student version which is not such a big deal with the
existence of the comp.soft-sys.matlab newsgroup.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| Bob Hoekstra 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Dick Bowman wrote:
> "MP" <smoak@mis.net> wrote in message
> news:bb018685.0403241831.2ebb2d83@posting.google.com...
> [... deleted ..]
>
>
>
> It might be worth taking a look at APL2 Workstation (if you haven't
> already) - there's a downloadable version that says you get 4 hours free
> usage (I'm still at 1% of the allowance) and it may be possible for it to
> read "pcapl2 for dos" workspaces or ATF files. That would get you somewhere
> reasonably modern - from there APLX is the least expensive migration path I
> can think of.
>
> For an off-the-wall idea, how about Dyalog APL on a PDA - which is
> inexpensive once you have the PDA (and it can be made to read ATFs)?
>
> But I've been saying for years that I'd like to see "personal use" APL at a
> comparable pricing level to scalar languages - I guess I don't have the
> required insight into vendor pricing models (they may well know a lot that I
> don't).
I'd like to also suggest APL2C (www.apl2c.com) which provides most of what you are
looking for. Furthermore you get the option of converting (part of) your APL to C and
compiling it, which can provide speed improvements. This is free and largely APL2
compliant.
| |
| Bob Hoekstra 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| David Liebtag wrote:
> Post contains my opinion, not my employer's.
>
> Once again people are complaining about the APL vendors' pricing policies
> and claiming that other languages are cheaper. I'd like to just offer a few
> facts:
>
> From the Microsoft web site:
>
> Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition $1,079
>
> From the Borland web site:
>
> C++ Builder 6 Professional $999.00
>
> From the Sun Microsystems web site:
>
> Sun ONE Studio 7, Enterprise Edition for Solaris $2995.00
>
> Seems to me that the APL vendor's prices are right in the same ballpark as
> the other language vendors' professional application development tools.
Yes, the prices show above are all true. But
Gnu compiler collection (C, C++, Fortran, Java) Free
Sun's Java Free
Perl Free
Python Free
Ruby Free
Various versions of Lisp, Smalltalk, blah, blah, blah... Free
But the real point is that DL's list all contained the words "professional" or
"enterprise". The talk thus far has been "private use" and "home use". How many
people use Sun ONE Studio 7, Enterprise Edition for Solaris at home? I bet there are
not very many. I am sitting in my home office surrounded by 6 SPARC boxes running
various versions of Solaris or OpenBSD and I don't have any software with the words
"professional" or "enterprise" in their title.
Free APL for personal use? Try APL2C, SAX/Linux, APLX/Linux. There are others, but as
far as I know they are not really worth trying.
Oh, BTW, my first list of free software is still free if an enterprise or
professional uses them, and many do :-)
Bob H
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-26, 11:09 pm |
| Bob Cain wrote:
> To qualify as a student all
> that is required is to state that you are and the only difference in the
> product is the level of support. Basically none for the student version
> which is not such a big deal with the existence of the
> comp.soft-sys.matlab newsgroup.
Which, I should add, wouldn't even exist if APL vendors,
especially IBM, had understood the idea of attracting new users.
Sorry to sound so bitter but back in the good old days with
Luther et. al. I really had visions of APL becoming the
language of choice for beginners, laboratories, schools and
me, to name a few. Sad to see what the narrow vision that
evolved has left us with.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| Reinhard Karcher 2004-03-27, 11:51 pm |
| Richard Nabavi wrote:
> Well, MicroAPL offers APLX Version 1.1 on Linux for free for personal
> use, which gives a full APL interpreter very close the APL2 language
> spec. and a modern GUI interface. I won't comment on whether it's
> 'for much the same reasons', but at least getting hooked on APL does
> you no harm!
>
And APLX can read APL2 *.ATF files.
Reinhard
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-03-27, 11:51 pm |
| "phil chastney" <phil@amadeus-info.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c41avk$vpb$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> oh, I absolutely agree -- but I can't see it happening soon (or ever)
>
> in the meantime, if your "serious work" involves database, what about K?
I have to admit I know next to nothing about K.
I read about many people beeing enthusiastic about it.
I started using J when I moved back to Iceland early 90s and in the
beginning it was the lack of APL characters that drew me to it.
It was next to impossible to use APL characters together with
Icelandic.
J more than fulfills all my needs for APL related work and I have
probably been too lazy to try to learn K as well.
It was hard enough to go from APL2 to IPSA and SAX to J - there are
way too many differances.
Talking about characters - I was telling my daughter about Morse and
then I thought about that it would be interesting to mix Morse and J
and I sent this into the J Forum.
I am curious what reactions I get on it.
Subject: [Jforum] -.--.- .--- ..-. --- .-. ..- -- -.--.- -- --- .-.
.... . - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. .. -. .---
... - .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. -... . .. -. - . .-. . ... - .. -. --.
- --- ... . . .- -... --- --- -.- .- -... --- ..- - .---
.-- .-. .. - - . -. .. -. -- --- .-. ... . .-.-.-
... .-- .- ... - . .- -.-. .... .. -. --. -- -.-- -.. .- ..-
--. ... - . .-. - .... . -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . .- -.
-.. - .... . -. .. - .... --- ..- --. .... - .- -... --- ..- -
.-- .-. .. - .. -. --. .- -- --- .-. ... - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .-
- --- .-. .. -. .--- .-.-.-
..... .- ... .- -. -.-- --- -. . -.. --- -. . .. - ..--..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...-. --- .-. .. -. ..-. --- .-. -- .- - .. --- -. .- -... --- ..-
- - .... . .--- ..-. --- .-. ..- -- ... . . .... - - .--.
---... -..-. -..-. .-- .-- .-- .-.-.- .--- ... --- ..-. - .-- .- .-. .
..-.-.- -.-. --- -- -..-. .--- .--.-. ..-. --- .-. ..- -- .-.-.- .... -
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might be an idea to use Morse to share APL code until the APL
characters can be used meaningfully on the Internet - when it is not
based on 7 bits
| |
| Todd Marshall 2004-03-27, 11:51 pm |
| -.. --- . ... -- --- .-. ... . .... .- ...- . -.-. --- -.. . ...
..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . -.-. .... .- .-. .- -.-. - .
..-. ... ..- ... . -.. .. -. .--- ..--..
Bj?rn Helgason wrote:
> "phil chastney" <phil@amadeus-info.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c41avk$vpb$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>
>
> I have to admit I know next to nothing about K.
>
> I read about many people beeing enthusiastic about it.
>
> I started using J when I moved back to Iceland early 90s and in the
> beginning it was the lack of APL characters that drew me to it.
>
> It was next to impossible to use APL characters together with
> Icelandic.
>
> J more than fulfills all my needs for APL related work and I have
> probably been too lazy to try to learn K as well.
>
> It was hard enough to go from APL2 to IPSA and SAX to J - there are
> way too many differances.
>
> Talking about characters - I was telling my daughter about Morse and
> then I thought about that it would be interesting to mix Morse and J
> and I sent this into the J Forum.
>
> I am curious what reactions I get on it.
>
>
> Subject: [Jforum] -.--.- .--- ..-. --- .-. ..- -- -.--.- -- --- .-.
> ... . - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. .. -. .---
> .. - .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. -... . .. -. - . .-. . ... - .. -. --.
> - --- ... . . .- -... --- --- -.- .- -... --- ..- - .---
> .-- .-. .. - - . -. .. -. -- --- .-. ... . .-.-.-
>
> .. .-- .- ... - . .- -.-. .... .. -. --. -- -.-- -.. .- ..-
> --. ... - . .-. - .... . -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . .- -.
> -.. - .... . -. .. - .... --- ..- --. .... - .- -... --- ..- -
> .-- .-. .. - .. -. --. .- -- --- .-. ... - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .-
> - --- .-. .. -. .--- .-.-.-
>
> .... .- ... .- -. -.-- --- -. . -.. --- -. . .. - ..--..
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ..-. --- .-. .. -. ..-. --- .-. -- .- - .. --- -. .- -... --- ..-
> - - .... . .--- ..-. --- .-. ..- -- ... . . .... - - .--.
> ---... -..-. -..-. .-- .-- .-- .-.-.- .--- ... --- ..-. - .-- .- .-. .
> .-.-.- -.-. --- -- -..-. .--- .--.-. ..-. --- .-. ..- -- .-.-.- .... -
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It might be an idea to use Morse to share APL code until the APL
> characters can be used meaningfully on the Internet - when it is not
> based on 7 bits
| |
|
| Roger Hui posted on the J forum...
"Morse from English" and "English from Morse":
t=. '/.-/-.../-.-./-.././..-./--./..../../.---/-.-/.-../--'
t=. t,'/-./---/.--./--.-/.-./.../-/..-/...-/.--/-..-'
t=. t,'/-.--/--..'
Morse=: <;._1 t
Alp=: a.{~ 65+i.26
T =: Alp&i. { (' '&,&.>Morse)"_
mfe=: ; @ T @ (-.&(a.-.Alp))
W =: ' '&E. <;.1 ]
efw=: T^:_1 @ W
efw mfe 'THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG'
THEQUICKBROWNFOXJUMPSOVERTHELAZYDOG
"Todd Marshall" <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote in message
news:4065a8dc$0$7056$a726171b@news.hal-pc.org...
> -.. --- . ... -- --- .-. ... . .... .- ...- . -.-. --- -.. . ...
> ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . -.-. .... .- .-. .- -.-. - .
> .-. ... ..- ... . -.. .. -. .--- ..--..
>
>
> Bj?rn Helgason wrote:
news:<c41avk$vpb$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...[color=darkred]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-03-28, 10:01 pm |
| "Kym" <not@here.com> wrote in message news:<40660ce6$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>...
> Roger Hui posted on the J forum...
>
> "Morse from English" and "English from Morse":
There should be a delay of about few days before Roger sees a problem
and let others get to try first.
Once Roger gets hold of a problem he effectively destroys the problem
within minutes.
It is well worth following the J Forum just to see some of the
excellent solutions presented there to various - former - problems.
It is not just Roger there are several others who share beautiful
ideas and code.
One thing worth mentioning in the new Beta being tested these days is
a complete card game solution written by a student.
| |
|
| The realy good news is that J is now free. J5.03 (the latest) has a free
license.
www.jsoftware.com
Give it a go!
"Bj?rn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote in message
news:56da45cc.0403280031.21f82cd0@posting.google.com...
> "Kym" <not@here.com> wrote in message
news:<40660ce6$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>...
>
> There should be a delay of about few days before Roger sees a problem
> and let others get to try first.
>
> Once Roger gets hold of a problem he effectively destroys the problem
> within minutes.
>
> It is well worth following the J Forum just to see some of the
> excellent solutions presented there to various - former - problems.
>
> It is not just Roger there are several others who share beautiful
> ideas and code.
>
> One thing worth mentioning in the new Beta being tested these days is
> a complete card game solution written by a student.
| |
|
| oxonian@mac.com (oxonian) wrote in message news:<fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com>...
> ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
> these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
APL is one of the best languages I have ever used and I was sorry to
move on since its so nicely designed but these days I use R.
Arrays, matrices, complex numbers, lists, oo dispatch, scheme-style
lexical scoping, access to parse tree of expressions, tons of addon
packages including gui via tcltk R package, error handling, debugger,
Windows, Mac, Unix/Linux, GPL'd.
Many books, 2MB of postings on r-help per month, more on r-devel,
user conference, RNews online mag, actively enhanced, Bell Labs
language developer won ACM prize for language.
Intended for statistics but increasingly used in other areas too.
Just enter the single letter r into google.
| |
| Philip A. Viton 2004-03-28, 10:01 pm |
| In article <1080233512.923150@jabba.vermontel.net>,
DavidLiebtag@vermontel.net says...
> Post contains my opinion, not my employer's.
>
> Once again people are complaining about the APL vendors' pricing policies
> and claiming that other languages are cheaper. I'd like to just offer a few
> facts:
>
> From the Microsoft web site:
>
> Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition $1,079
>
> From the Borland web site:
>
> C++ Builder 6 Professional $999.00
>
> From the Sun Microsystems web site:
>
> Sun ONE Studio 7, Enterprise Edition for Solaris $2995.00
>
> Seems to me that the APL vendor's prices are right in the same ballpark as
> the other language vendors' professional application development tools.
>
> David Liebtag
>
>
>
Agreed; but there are also versions which enable you to
develop your own non-commercial apps: eg VisualBasic.net or VisualC#.Net
($109 each locally); Borland C++ Builder ($79). I suppose what some
people wish is that APL vendors had something similar - my impression is
that they don't.
--
Philip A. Viton
Ohio State University
| |
| Bob Cain 2004-03-29, 1:30 am |
| Grod wrote:
>
> Just enter the single letter r into google.
This looks _very_ nice. Thanks for the heads up. This may
be just what I'm looking for, an interpreter that is nowhere
near as clumsily designed as Matlab and _very_ well suited
to DSP research, development and application.
Very sensibly designed. If I'd specified an ascii based
object oriented interpreter this would be about it! No
esoteric folderol, either, to appease language specialists
and get in the way of understanding or expression, and no
effort to compress everything into unreadable compounded
single character operators selected from a set designed and
used to express other things.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
| |
| Kingsley G. Morse Jr. 2004-03-29, 5:30 am |
| It seems to me that J is the swan song of APL's
originator, Ken Iverson, and is therefore more
credentialed than the alternatives.
| |
| John Sigurdson 2004-03-30, 4:30 pm |
| The intro to R on www.r-project.org mentions compatiblilty with Windows
9x/NT/2000 but no mention of XP. Will it compile and run on XP? If not, is
that planned?
John
"Grod" <ggrothendieck@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:ffd662ea.0403281047.7f0902e7@posting.google.com...
> oxonian@mac.com (oxonian) wrote in message
news:<fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com>...
>
> APL is one of the best languages I have ever used and I was sorry to
> move on since its so nicely designed but these days I use R.
> Arrays, matrices, complex numbers, lists, oo dispatch, scheme-style
> lexical scoping, access to parse tree of expressions, tons of addon
> packages including gui via tcltk R package, error handling, debugger,
> Windows, Mac, Unix/Linux, GPL'd.
>
> Many books, 2MB of postings on r-help per month, more on r-devel,
> user conference, RNews online mag, actively enhanced, Bell Labs
> language developer won ACM prize for language.
>
> Intended for statistics but increasingly used in other areas too.
>
> Just enter the single letter r into google.
| |
|
| "John Sigurdson" <jsigurdson@ricochet.com> wrote in message news:<4069d558_4@omega.dimensional.com>...
> The intro to R on www.r-project.org mentions compatiblilty with Windows
> 9x/NT/2000 but no mention of XP. Will it compile and run on XP? If not, is
> that planned?
Its an oversight of that web page. I use it on XP and both the
R Windows FAQ and the Introduction to R manual (both on the R site)
mention it works on XP.
You probably will get better responses to this sort of problem on
the r-help mailing list than here. Click on Mailing Lists in the
left hand pane of the R home page or get it through gmane at:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.r.general
| |
| Georg Bauhaus 2004-04-07, 1:30 pm |
| Bob Hoekstra <Bob.Hoekstra@hoekstrasystems.ltd.uk> wrote:
: Yes, the prices show above are all true. But
: Gnu compiler collection (C, C++, Fortran, Java) Free
: Sun's Java Free
: Perl Free
: Python Free
: Ruby Free
: Various versions of Lisp, Smalltalk, blah, blah, blah... Free
Does A+ not fulfill the criteria?
-- georg
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-04-09, 5:36 am |
| Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<c51apo$mkv$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...
> Bob Hoekstra <Bob.Hoekstra@hoekstrasystems.ltd.uk> wrote:
>
> : Yes, the prices show above are all true. But
> : Gnu compiler collection (C, C++, Fortran, Java) Free
> : Sun's Java Free
> : Perl Free
> : Python Free
> : Ruby Free
> : Various versions of Lisp, Smalltalk, blah, blah, blah... Free
>
> Does A+ not fulfill the criteria?
J on www.jsoftware.com
is obviously now Free
and not just any trial version.
I do not know how they do it
It would be interesting to know how the usage of J has been during
different periods of pricing
They have tried different ways of pricing and the number of users is
obviously growing and the interest in various problems being solved
with J is clear from the forum.
At the moment I particularly like the discussion about
[Jforum] linear interpolation
and many interesting solutions and insights
It would be better if such discussions could be held here in c.l.a
because mailing lists are so heavy on the mailbox - would be much
better to use the news mechanism
| |
|
| "Bjorn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote:
> J on www.jsoftware.com
> is obviously now Free
> and not just any trial version.
>
> I do not know how they do it
>
> It would be interesting to know how the usage of J has been during
> different periods of pricing
J is free as in price not as in GNU.
The APL/J/K and even Glee comunity is very small. Lets face it our whole
array language community is NOT on the horizon compared with JAVA, VB, and
C#. (COBOL for that matter).
The value proposition is NOT in software license, but in services.
The more people that use a product then the more services and support is
required.
Even Red Hat (Linux) still have their free version (Fedora). What you pay
for for Red Hat now is full strength support - the software is still GNU
GPL'd - you get the source code and can do what you wish with it subject to
the GNU GPL.
<rant>Get used to it people, this is what M$ are sh*t scared of, having to
deliver service instead of proprietory product. Lets face it M$ don't know
what service means. If M$ could deliver service then they would rule the
universe. </rant>
If we want array languages to flourish they need to be adopted by the
technical comunity and then the benefits demonstrated to the rest of the
business and management. At best we are a niche community, albeit an
important one for computer science.
To enable array languages to flourish there needs to be minimal barriers to
techo's playing with the technology.
My 2.2 cents (inc 10% GST).
Regards, Kym
| |
| Bj?rn Helgason 2004-04-10, 5:33 am |
| "Kym" <not@here.com> wrote in message news:<40773139$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>...
> "Bjorn Helgason" <bjorn@hansaworld.is> wrote:
.......
[color=darkred]
> The value proposition is NOT in software license, but in services.
>
> The more people that use a product then the more services and support is
> required.
........
> To enable array languages to flourish there needs to be minimal barriers to
> techo's playing with the technology.
I think you are right and I have been proposing that for APL:s a long
time
I believe that this latest step by J developers will be a major step
for APL
J has all the qualities a major product needs to succeed and it will
be such a joy to see it become one
I still find it very hard to brand J and give a first answer to what
is J
If I say J is a computer language I can possibly scare off those who
do not like computer languages and they shut their ears for further
info
If I say J is a mathematics tool I may be misleading some who are
looking for a tool with traditional math
If I say J is a calculator it is missing the buttons a calculator has
If I say J is a tool to play and make games it is a bit hard to
convince beginners that taking pousse and/or solitaire and create your
own similar game would be something worth their while
If I say J is an APL I loose all of those who have given up on APL
If I say J is an APL I may also loose many of those who do use APL and
do not find the characters
In a sense J is all of the above and more and I can now without
reservation tell people that the answer is best demontrated and I can
get a copy they can then freely use for free
Invariably I find it best to start by showing a sample of how J can be
a calculator, a short trip through plot demo and labs, show pousse and
now I am looking forward to add solitaire to the repertoire and then a
short trip into the help
I am always looking for an answer to the question "what is J?"
When I am not in the position to demonstrate it I mostly point to the
translation of the J Primer
http://linux.is/forritun/data/J/grunnur.pdf and ask for a permission
to give a demo
| |
|
|
APL : J : K
Schonberg : Berg : Webern
"oxonian" <oxonian@mac.com> wrote in message news:fa95df0.0403020603.3450c822@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
> I'm interested in re-learning APL for hobby programming and maybe as
> an extra tool for my work (physics). I use macs and PCs, various OSes.
>
> --aside:
> I say re-learning because I did learn the basics once while doing work
> experience for a company in Frankfurt 15 years ago. I remember I
> really enjoyed the language and found it very graceful. They ran their
> APL on a shared central machine that (I was told) never executed less
> than one line of APL - so of course I wrote a on-liner for the
> mandelbrot set. All great fun!
> --
>
> ANYWAY, browsing around the net I see there seem to be three options
> these days: APL, K and J. I've read a few descriptions of J and K
> (discovering to my disapointment that they don't use special
> characters, but oh well!), however I haven't found a really helpful
> comparision of the three. In particular:
>
> (a) in terms of the language structure, do they differ much in the
> language, or are they slight variants? I couldn't find a
> definitive/reliable text on this point. In particular, does learning
> one correspond to learning all? If not all the more reason to make the
> right choice as a newbie!
> (a) Are they suited (limited?) to quite different applications? As I
> mentioned my interest would be in physics applications, esp. QM which
> uses a lot of matrix manipulation. Bread and butter for all three
> languages perhaps.
> (b) Which are the more active languages these days, in terms of number
> of users and enthusiasts?
> (c) Which can be support a 'modern' GUI for the end user? Which have
> reasonable graphics support? Perhaps that is more a question for
> vendor specific products...
> (d) Which languages have the best commercial (or open source) tools
> available, and what are they? I see a few nice comments about Dyalog
> APL for example.
>
> Any input on these questions, or on other considerations, would be
> much apppreciated!
| |
|
| "Don Barry" <don@astro.cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:a316a559.0406250955.7063b31b@posting.google.com...
> on 2004-03-28, Kym (not@here.com) wrote,
free[color=darkred]
>
> Would that this were so.
>
> It is true that individual licenses for use of J5.03 (which is provided in
> binary only for a small number of platforms) are available (at the moment)
for free.
> I'm convinced that one of the impediments to the more rapid growth of the
J
> language is the fear occasioned by the unavailability of its source, and
> the unclear path that might follow after retirement of its
> its principal developers. Some of them, after all, have had very long
> careers behind them!
[snip]
> Still, regards to the J developers for the most beautiful and elegant
> language I know.
> Don Barry
Don: You are correct from a GNU perspective. But no one ever said that
people have to open if they don't want to. There are also many
alternatives to the GPL, eg. really open BSD and apache to the more closed
community (ie: retain control) licenses that IBM and Sun have.
If Jsoftware decide to open up then great, but if they don't then that is
their call as well. Jsoftware do have a source license if you want to pay.
Don't forget that Stallman et. al. have very extreme view of IP rights, (as
do M$ etc). The GPL is not always the best solution, and neither is a
closed proprietory apprach either - it is a matter of finding a business
model that works for a product.
Am I service oriented? Then open source is the way to go. If I am product
oriented then closed is appropriate. Hybrid (eg. IBM who receive something
over 50% of revenue from services, opened Eclipse) then some open and some
closed product.
My personal assessment is that the software industry in general is moving
towards a service oriented model. The major exception is M$.
Kym
| |
| Charles Richmond 2004-06-27, 8:55 am |
| Kym wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> My personal assessment is that the software industry in general is moving
> towards a service oriented model. The major exception is M$.
>
Yes!!! M$ uses a *dis*-service oriented model..,
--
+-------------------------------
| Charles and Francis Richmond
| richmond at plano dot net
| Re-Defeat Bush!!!
+-------------------------------
|
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