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Java Object-Oriented Prgramming- Basics for High School Course ???
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I hope this is the right group within which to post this message. If I am
off base, please tell me and I will try a more appropriate group. But, I
do need help for my son, and this was the only place that I know where to
turn for help.
My son is in high school, and is taking a basic Java course. The text
book is called "Java Methods", An Introduction to Object-Oriented
Programming. The authors are Maria and Gary Litvin.
It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
she doesn't have super teaching skills. My son works hard and is smart,
but cannot for the life of him figure out how to actually write a simple
program. He doesn't have a clue where to start, and cannot do most of the
book assignments as he hasn't learned the very, very basic elements of
writing a Java program. At the same time, he is very smart, works hard,
and I know for a fact that he can and will learn Java if exposed to the
right source.
Some of the book assignments simply say, "Write a program that will do the
following..... etc, etc "
Here are my questions:
1. Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?
2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER to the
Java language?
3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book , that effectively teaches Java
Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
(without teacher assistance) if he were willing to work hard at it ??
4. Is there a Java software product that can be used as a teaching source
for learning BASIC Java Object-Oriented Programming ?
------------------------------------------
In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the student
was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to write
a simple program with a w or ten days.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated !!
--James--
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| Wiseguy 2005-02-26, 8:58 pm |
| "James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:
>
> It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
> she doesn't have super teaching skills. My son works hard and is smart,
> but cannot for the life of him figure out how to actually write a simple
> program. He doesn't have a clue where to start, and cannot do most of the
> book assignments as he hasn't learned the very, very basic elements of
> writing a Java program. At the same time, he is very smart, works hard,
> and I know for a fact that he can and will learn Java if exposed to the
> right source.
Being his parent, you're in no way biased, right?
> 1. Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?
I don't see why it wouldn't be an adequate forum to ask.
> 2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER to the
> Java language?
Yes, but not for the average highschool kid.
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book , that effectively teaches Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance) if he were willing to work hard at it ??
I suppose I'll take all kinds of flaming for this since many of us are/were
self-taught in the golden age of computers (1970s-1980s) but I really don't
think (effective) java programming can or should be taught to teenagers in
highschool.
It goes back to a fundamental concept I've believed for over 20 years and
I'm not about to change my mind. People really need to conceptually
understand computer science principles as part of learning to program in ANY
object oriented language. Teaching programming separate from theory has
led to a slew of underqualified incapable programmers out there who produce
substandard code but are attractive to industry because they work cheap.
I'll step off of my soap-box now...Asbestos coveralls are on, so flame at will.
> 4. Is there a Java software product that can be used as a teaching source
> for learning BASIC Java Object-Oriented Programming ?
I don't really think object oriented programming is BASIC...
There once was a language called BASIC and highschool kids should start by
learning that since it is a useful tool for teaching algorithms and ways of
thinking about problems without getting bogged down in higher level concepts.
> In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
> beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the student
> was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to write
> a simple program with a w or ten days.
Even with my unwavering feelings about whether it is appropriate to teach
java to a highschool kid, I have a hard time immagining a class where the
first w of lectures does NOT include a blackboard example such that
simply copying it would produce a working java program. Are you sure
Jr. is REALLY taking notes and paying attention? OTOH, those who cannot
DO, TEACH INSTEAD...so it is possible that his instructor is innept.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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Well, we can all fully understand why your chosen Newsgroup name is
Wiseguy.
I didn't have to know anything about software to figure that one out.
Good Luck !!
--James--
--------------------------------
"James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:
>
> It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
> she doesn't have super teaching skills. My son works hard and is smart,
> but cannot for the life of him figure out how to actually write a simple
> program. He doesn't have a clue where to start, and cannot do most of the
> book assignments as he hasn't learned the very, very basic elements of
> writing a Java program. At the same time, he is very smart, works hard,
> and I know for a fact that he can and will learn Java if exposed to the
> right source.
Being his parent, you're in no way biased, right?
> 1. Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?
I don't see why it wouldn't be an adequate forum to ask.
> 2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER to the
> Java language?
Yes, but not for the average highschool kid.
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book , that effectively teaches
Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance) if he were willing to work hard at it ??
I suppose I'll take all kinds of flaming for this since many of us are/were
self-taught in the golden age of computers (1970s-1980s) but I really don't
think (effective) java programming can or should be taught to teenagers in
highschool.
It goes back to a fundamental concept I've believed for over 20 years and
I'm not about to change my mind. People really need to conceptually
understand computer science principles as part of learning to program in ANY
object oriented language. Teaching programming separate from theory has
led to a slew of underqualified incapable programmers out there who produce
substandard code but are attractive to industry because they work cheap.
I'll step off of my soap-box now...Asbestos coveralls are on, so flame at
will.
> 4. Is there a Java software product that can be used as a teaching
source
> for learning BASIC Java Object-Oriented Programming ?
I don't really think object oriented programming is BASIC...
There once was a language called BASIC and highschool kids should start by
learning that since it is a useful tool for teaching algorithms and ways of
thinking about problems without getting bogged down in higher level
concepts.
> In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
> beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the
student
> was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to
write
> a simple program with a w or ten days.
Even with my unwavering feelings about whether it is appropriate to teach
java to a highschool kid, I have a hard time immagining a class where the
first w of lectures does NOT include a blackboard example such that
simply copying it would produce a working java program. Are you sure
Jr. is REALLY taking notes and paying attention? OTOH, those who cannot
DO, TEACH INSTEAD...so it is possible that his instructor is innept.
| |
| emma wykes 2005-02-26, 8:58 pm |
| Hi There,
Wiseguy has some valid points !
I am speaking as a post grad student who learned Java without the first idea
of computer science or programming I was an electrician !
Most people can learn OOP with a lot of application.
He could try Blue J book and IDE http://www.bluej.org/
David J. Barnes & Michael Kölling
Objects First with Java
A Practical Introduction using BlueJ, 2nd ed
Prentice Hall / Pearson Education, 2004
ISBN 0-13-124933-9
I think this is as good a manual as any .
regards
Jim Ascroft
"Wiseguy" <noone@uber.usachoice.net> wrote in message
news:4220ec6f$1_2@127.0.0.1...
> "James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:
but[color=darkred]
smart,[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
hard,[color=darkred]
>
> Being his parent, you're in no way biased, right?
>
>
>
> I don't see why it wouldn't be an adequate forum to ask.
>
>
the[color=darkred]
>
> Yes, but not for the average highschool kid.
>
>
Java[color=darkred]
up[color=darkred]
>
> I suppose I'll take all kinds of flaming for this since many of us
are/were
> self-taught in the golden age of computers (1970s-1980s) but I really
don't
> think (effective) java programming can or should be taught to teenagers in
> highschool.
>
> It goes back to a fundamental concept I've believed for over 20 years and
> I'm not about to change my mind. People really need to conceptually
> understand computer science principles as part of learning to program in
ANY
> object oriented language. Teaching programming separate from theory has
> led to a slew of underqualified incapable programmers out there who
produce
> substandard code but are attractive to industry because they work cheap.
>
> I'll step off of my soap-box now...Asbestos coveralls are on, so flame at
will.
>
>
source[color=darkred]
>
> I don't really think object oriented programming is BASIC...
>
> There once was a language called BASIC and highschool kids should start by
> learning that since it is a useful tool for teaching algorithms and ways
of
> thinking about problems without getting bogged down in higher level
concepts.
>
>
student[color=darkred]
write[color=darkred]
>
> Even with my unwavering feelings about whether it is appropriate to teach
> java to a highschool kid, I have a hard time immagining a class where the
> first w of lectures does NOT include a blackboard example such that
> simply copying it would produce a working java program. Are you sure
> Jr. is REALLY taking notes and paying attention? OTOH, those who cannot
> DO, TEACH INSTEAD...so it is possible that his instructor is innept.
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----
| |
| Paul Chapman 2005-02-26, 8:58 pm |
| James,
I would echo some of what Wiseguy wrote, but not all.
I certainly agree that Java is inappropriate for a FIRST language. It
worries me that your son's school does not appear to share this view. BASIC
was and still is a far better idea. LOGO would be my choice today, even
though its heyday is past, because the teaching materials were designed by
teachers (very good teachers) and not programmers.
Beyond that, programming is not for everybody.
It's not like art, where anyone can follow the instruction "draw a horse".
Ask me to draw a horse, and I will produce something the average
eight-year-old could beat. It will be recognizable as a horse, but wouldn't
be suitable for illustrating a book about horses. I cannot make money from
drawing.
But ask someone to write a program to load a picture of a horse and render
it on the screen upside down, and there will simply be people who can't do
it. Programming is a discipline that at the first requires ABSOLUTE
pedantry, and some people can't (and don't want to) function that way.
Beyond that, programming gets very hard very quickly. Being able to create
a program to solve a problem from scratch again requires a very particular
way of thinking. Being "bright" or "good at maths" or "well-trained" is
sometimes simply not enough.
....
Constructive advice: not much to give. First off, get your son a BASIC or
LOGO system with some introductory materials and start him off on that. If
the school complains, tell 'em to go to hell. Do you want your son to be
able to program, or to please the teachers?
Then find a parent who programs and who understands why Java is such a bad
first language, and go see the principal together and ask him/her what the
hell they think they're doing. Well, maybe be a bit more diplomatic. :)
Say you'll offer to help them set up a world-beating
introduction-to-programming course.
Cheers, Paul
| |
| Chris Smith 2005-02-26, 8:58 pm |
| Paul Chapman <paul@igblan.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> Constructive advice: not much to give. First off, get your son a BASIC or
> LOGO system with some introductory materials and start him off on that. If
> the school complains, tell 'em to go to hell. Do you want your son to be
> able to program, or to please the teachers?
That seems to me like an incredibly poor approach. Like it or not, this
is about accomplishing the goal of learning Java. Java may not be the
best language to learn it (although it's far better than some), but it's
not a good choice to attempt to learn Java by first learning something
else, and then learning Java. I might as well advise you that because
French is a hard language to learn, you should learn Latin first and
then move on to French.
So definitely check out BlueJ, and/or also look up the "Java Tutorial",
which has an excellent step-by-step section on getting started with your
first program. Then take Patricia's advice, and just have him start
working a lot of simple example problems.
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
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Thank you all for these nice responses.
--James--
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| Paul Chapman 2005-02-26, 8:58 pm |
| "Chris Smith" wrote:
> Paul Chapman wrote:
>
or[color=darkred]
If[color=darkred]
be[color=darkred]
>
> That seems to me like an incredibly poor approach. Like it or not, this
> is about accomplishing the goal of learning Java. Java may not be the
> best language to learn it (although it's far better than some), ...
I would say that it's not much better than very few, but anyway...
> ... but it's
> not a good choice to attempt to learn Java by first learning something
> else, and then learning Java. I might as well advise you that because
> French is a hard language to learn, you should learn Latin first and
> then move on to French.
Well, this has become a political debate, and people's politics vary
radically. :)
I strongly believe that in any subject, that *if* one has ambitions beyond a
superficial, lay understanding, *then* one should learn the fundamentals
first.
Your Latin/French example is a good one. If you want to be able to order a
beer on a two-w vacation in Britanny, then forget the Latin. If you want
to be able to read and understand French philosophy, you need the Latin. I
did two years of Latin, and it helped me not one jot in my French and German
exams. But now I'm older, even my foggy recollections of those two years
inform my understanding of two thousand years of European history, right up
to political and social differences today, not to mention the history of
British mathematics and science, and my lay interest in linguistics. I only
wish I had some Ancient Gr as well!
(And in the absence of any formal education in English grammar -- my schools
were both a little too progressive in that area -- I thank the stars that I
was made aware of parts of speech in my Latin studies. Many PROFESSIONAL
writers of English today obviously do not have a grasp of simple grammar --
few can identify a gerund, for example, and as a consequence pretty much
every single news or feature article committed to the page uses an object
pronoun somewhere where a possessive pronoun belongs. Latin is not the only
route to such understanding, but it does a grand job in the absence of
formal training in English.)
There are fundamentals in programming. OO is not one of them (and the world
of computer programming did fine without it for 25 years). GUI is not one
of them. Where to put and where not to put braces and semicolons is not one
of them, nor are two-dimensional arrays which are actually vectors of
vectors.
Compare:
class MyClass {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello World"); } }
with:
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 END
and tell me which you think helps start someone off with the fundamentals of
programming!
Cheers, Paul
| |
| Brian Hetrick 2005-02-26, 8:59 pm |
| "James" wrote ...
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book, that effectively teaches
> Java Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could
> pick it up (without teacher assistance) if he were willing to work
> hard at it ??
Firstly, I have to agree with several others here that Java is a poor
choice for a first language. It has too many special cases in the
syntax and semantics; and while someone with a good understanding of
computer science can understand why the special cases are a 90%
solution and extending the language to provide a 100% solution would
turn it into C++, someone just starting out cannot. Pascal would be a
much better first language: it was /designed/ to be a first language
by someone who was both an expert educator and a world-class computer
scientist, and succeeds admirably.
As we're already a month into the semester, "write a program to do
<foo>," where "<foo>" is something fairly simple, is entirely
reasonable. On the other hand, if the instructor did not spend the
first month pounding the concepts and methods of procedural thinking
into the students' heads, "write a program" at all is not reasonable.
A good book for the motivated novice is Bruce Eckel's /Thinking in
Java/. This is freely downloadable in electron form, although you may
prefer dead tree form. For electron form, see
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/.
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| Chris Smith 2005-02-26, 8:59 pm |
| Paul Chapman <paul@igblan.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, this has become a political debate, and people's politics vary
> radically. :)
I don't know about that. I agree with pretty much everything you said.
However, the fact remains that this kid is apparently in a semester
class in programming that uses Java, and going off to learn Logo and
BASIC is not going to help much with that class in a one-semester time
frame, especially if it he's still sitting in class hearing about Java
on a regular basis anyway, and BASIC takes away from the time he is
spending learning Java.
It *is* possible to learn the basics of programming in Java, and it
looks like that is what's called for here.
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
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| iSyncLtd@hotmail.com 2005-02-27, 3:59 am |
| i learned LTP BASIC and then java.
basic is helpful to learn the logic part of programing but i would just
recommend "java 2 for dummies" :) that's how i learned it and it has
less techno stuff others wouldn't know
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