PERL Beginners - You've read the Llama, now what?

Author

You've read the Llama, now what?

Tom Yarrish

2005-11-28, 3:55 am

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Hey all,
I've been reading this list for a while, and I've been trying to
learn perl on my own for quite some time. However, my job doesn't
really (from my vantage point at least) "allow" me to do any sort of
programming (by that I mean my day to day work is more administrative
and project related versus writing any code). So it makes it
difficult for me to apply what I've read from the O'Reilly books to
real world problems (and I've read the Llama book a few times).
My main issue has been trying to come up with a way to build up any
type of perl skills, and I know to do that requires writing code.
However it's been difficult for me to come up with something to
write. Some of the things I think about doing are too far ahead of
my skill set, and I want to have a better understanding of
fundamentals before I take on larger "programming projects." I tend
to be more of a "hands on" type of person, so as I do things more and
more, I understand how it works.
So I was curious as to what some of the more experienced perl mongers
out there have done to improve their Perl skills past reading the
standard books. Do you go to some sites and improve code? Do you
just sit around and think up something to program?
How do you improve your skills, if you're not programming "every day"?

Thanks,
Tom
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tim.henderson

2005-11-28, 3:55 am

this may sound a bit strange, but you could use projects on this
school's computer science website in the advanced topics section quater
one

http://cs.columbusacademy.org/ATCS_1Q/ATCS_Syll.html

i became fairly profienct at perl using the Lama book and those
projects, email me if you need help with the solutions.

usenet@DavidFilmer.com

2005-11-28, 3:55 am

Tom Yarrish wrote:
> My main issue has been trying to come up with a way to build up any
> type of perl skills, and I know to do that requires writing code.
> However it's been difficult for me to come up with something to
> write. Some of the things I think about doing are too far ahead of
> my skill set, and I want to have a better understanding of
> fundamentals before I take on larger "programming projects."

For many folks (like me), the first exposure to Perl is writing a
dynamic CGI-driven webpage. This can start small and simple, and grow
to large and complex, so it's a good area for beginners to hone their
skills.

But, I wonder, what things have you already thought of? It's possible
they aren't as far beyond your skills as you think. Perl has a way of
offering solutions that aren't apparent until you dive into a project
(and I'm thinking in large part of the massive CPAN library - you can
write highly robust and functional code by knitting together various
CPAN modules with basic control statements). If you give us some
examples of what you would really like to do, we may be able to suggest
an approach that fits within your skills. You will be far more
successfful if you're writing something you really want to write,
instead of a script to calculate hourly wages while considering
overtime pay (a staple of computer science class).

Paul Lalli

2005-11-28, 7:55 am

On 11/27/05, Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> wrote:

> I've been reading this list for a while, and I've been trying to
> learn perl on my own for quite some time. However, my job doesn't
> really (from my vantage point at least) "allow" me to do any sort of
> programming (by that I mean my day to day work is more administrative
> and project related versus writing any code). So it makes it
> difficult for me to apply what I've read from the O'Reilly books to
> real world problems (and I've read the Llama book a few times).
> My main issue has been trying to come up with a way to build up any
> type of perl skills, and I know to do that requires writing code.
> However it's been difficult for me to come up with something to
> write.

Tom,

I do use Perl all day long just about every day, so I'm definately not
in your situation. However, you may be interested in sites such as
the "Perl Quiz of the W

" found at: http://perl.plover.com/qotw/

They send out two quizzes every w

(one "beginner" and one more
advanced). You can try to solve the quiz and send in your solution.=20
After a w

, the various solutions are discussed.

Hope this helps,
Paul Lalli

Elie De Brauwer

2005-11-28, 7:55 am

Paul Lalli wrote:
> On 11/27/05, Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> I do use Perl all day long just about every day, so I'm definately not
> in your situation. However, you may be interested in sites such as
> the "Perl Quiz of the W

" found at: http://perl.plover.com/qotw/
>
> They send out two quizzes every w

(one "beginner" and one more
> advanced). You can try to solve the quiz and send in your solution.
> After a w

, the various solutions are discussed.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Paul Lalli
>

Hello,

The site looks rather dead. There is no trace of a quiz more recent than
october 2004 :(

gr
E.

--
Elie De Brauwer

Swayam Panda

2005-11-28, 7:55 am

Hi

There is Saying

I See and I Forget
I Hear and I Remember
I Do and I Understand .
Swayam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elie De Brauwer" <eliedebrauwer@telenet.be>
To: "Paul Lalli" <mritty@gmail.com>
Cc: <beginners@perl.org>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: You've read the Llama, now what?

> Paul Lalli wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> The site looks rather dead. There is no trace of a quiz more recent than
> october 2004 :(
>
> gr
> E.
>
> --
> Elie De Brauwer
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
> <http://learn.perl.org/> <http://learn.perl.org/first-response>
>
>
>

Rob Coops

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

I would say get stuck in...

You are speaking of larger projects well choose one and start working on it..
Small steps and one at a time. Then when you have the first small stp
running go back and improve what you have made with what you have learned.
Ask many questions as this will help you figure out how to do the more
complex stuff and how to get the basics just right.

Make sure you start every script with the following two lines (before
anything else)
use warnings;
use strict;

And should you make a web page make sure yo also include:
use taint;

Your first project will take a long time to get started but once done you
will see that it isn't that hard it is all about thinking in perl and not in
English (or what ever your native toung might be).

As an example my first step in perl was writing my name into a database, the
next one was a database driven website that had a search engine, a user
registration, automatic DNS and mail server configuration, and was able to
access and index FTP servers to populate the search engine.

Now looking at that code it is, well a decent enough first attempt but I
would most likely not ever make so many mistakes in a row as I did with that
site, (it did work in the end, all of it) I actually have long since
improved it several times over as I have learned more about how to do the
things right or much faster than I was doing them before. Yet that is where
I learned my basic perl skills.

All in all I would say start working with it and don't worry about making
mistakes or things taking a long time. You will in a few years look back at
your first steps and think you should have done well everything difffrent.
Programing in that way is not much diffrent from dating ;-)

Regards,

Rob

On 11/28/05, Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hey all,
> I've been reading this list for a while, and I've been trying to
> learn perl on my own for quite some time. However, my job doesn't
> really (from my vantage point at least) "allow" me to do any sort of
> programming (by that I mean my day to day work is more administrative
> and project related versus writing any code). So it makes it
> difficult for me to apply what I've read from the O'Reilly books to
> real world problems (and I've read the Llama book a few times).
> My main issue has been trying to come up with a way to build up any
> type of perl skills, and I know to do that requires writing code.
> However it's been difficult for me to come up with something to
> write. Some of the things I think about doing are too far ahead of
> my skill set, and I want to have a better understanding of
> fundamentals before I take on larger "programming projects." I tend
> to be more of a "hands on" type of person, so as I do things more and
> more, I understand how it works.
> So I was curious as to what some of the more experienced perl mongers
> out there have done to improve their Perl skills past reading the
> standard books. Do you go to some sites and improve code? Do you
> just sit around and think up something to program?
> How do you improve your skills, if you're not programming "every day"?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
>
> iD8DBQFDioieZWzkfeDiTw4RAg4WAKCLhU6608Tf
xBbEizcPlxM6wSQF4QCgl4WA
> iSy33Z2jwGwglMxbXIW/z8I=
> =yaZm
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
> <http://learn.perl.org/> <http://learn.perl.org/first-response>
>
>
>

John Doe

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

Tom Yarrish am Montag, 28. November 2005 05.33:
> Hey all,
> I've been reading this list for a while, and I've been trying to
> learn perl on my own for quite some time. However, my job doesn't
> really (from my vantage point at least) "allow" me to do any sort of
> programming (by that I mean my day to day work is more administrative
> and project related versus writing any code). So it makes it
> difficult for me to apply what I've read from the O'Reilly books to
> real world problems (and I've read the Llama book a few times).
> My main issue has been trying to come up with a way to build up any
> type of perl skills, and I know to do that requires writing code.
> However it's been difficult for me to come up with something to
> write. Some of the things I think about doing are too far ahead of
> my skill set, and I want to have a better understanding of
> fundamentals before I take on larger "programming projects." I tend
> to be more of a "hands on" type of person, so as I do things more and
> more, I understand how it works.
> So I was curious as to what some of the more experienced perl mongers
> out there have done to improve their Perl skills past reading the
> standard books. Do you go to some sites and improve code? Do you
> just sit around and think up something to program?
> How do you improve your skills, if you're not programming "every day"?

This is not an answer to how to improve perl skills, but an answer how to make
it easier to maintain your code with improving perl skills. I know, you
didn't ask for that...

[*] Modularise your code.

If a big problem can be split into smaller parts, code accordingly:
Use subs and modules. This will make maintenance easier.

perldoc perlmod

[*] Ask "Can I generalize the specific task a want to program?"

If possible, do it and create a module for it. This means more work now, but
lesser work later. It is also a motivation to think deeper about the task.
And, chances are there that you can reuse the module.
(This avoids, after detecting errors, to fix them in widespread cut&pasted
code)

When designing a module, keep your eyes on the public interface. Don't choose
the interface based on the easiest implementation.
It's easier to change/improve the implementation than the interface if a
module is in use.

And don't forget
- to comment your code
- to sanitize any input from outside from the beginning on
- to develop tests parallel to the code
- to have a look into the perl source to get ideas
- before reinventing wheels, look for modules on search.cpan.org

If you have enough time, reinvent wheels - but then, use the existent wheels,
and compare them with yours.

I certainly missed some points :-)

joe

Randal L. Schwartz

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> writes:

Tom> So it makes it difficult for me to apply what I've read from the
Tom> O'Reilly books to real world problems (and I've read the Llama
Tom> book a few times).

But have you also read the Alpaca? That's the natural "next book"
after the llama.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Wiggins d'Anconia

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>
>
> Tom> So it makes it difficult for me to apply what I've read from the
> Tom> O'Reilly books to real world problems (and I've read the Llama
> Tom> book a few times).
>
> But have you also read the Alpaca? That's the natural "next book"
> after the llama.
>

And as a non-author of said book I recommend it as a good next step. It
filled a void long overdue in the Perl book space. (No affiliation with
the authors or O'Reilly.)

http://danconia.org

Tom Yarrish

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:

>
> Tom> So it makes it difficult for me to apply what I've read from the
> Tom> O'Reilly books to real world problems (and I've read the Llama
> Tom> book a few times).
>
> But have you also read the Alpaca? That's the natural "next book"
> after the llama.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
> <http://learn.perl.org/> <http://learn.perl.org/first-response>
>
>
>
No I haven't read that one yet. I actually forgot about that one until I
heard your Perlcast interview over the w

end. ;)
Speaking of which, during the interview you mentioned a book that contains
all the articles you've writting over the years. Is that book out or are
you still working on it? I looked at O'Reilly's site and didn't see it
listed there.

Thanks,
Tom

Frank D. Gunseor

2005-11-28, 6:57 pm

Now that is REALLY helpful!

-----Original Message-----
From: swayam panda [mailto:swayamprakash.panda@aftek.com]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 3:59 AM
To: beginners@perl.org
Subject: Re: You've read the Llama, now what?

Hi

There is Saying

I See and I Forget
I Hear and I Remember
I Do and I Understand .
Swayam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elie De Brauwer" <eliedebrauwer@telenet.be>
To: "Paul Lalli" <mritty@gmail.com>
Cc: <beginners@perl.org>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: You've read the Llama, now what?

> Paul Lalli wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> The site looks rather dead. There is no trace of a quiz more recent
> than october 2004 :(
>
> gr
> E.
>
> --
> Elie De Brauwer
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org For additional
> commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org <http://learn.perl.org/>
> <http://learn.perl.org/first-response>
>
>
>

--
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Purl Gurl

2005-11-29, 3:56 am

tom wrote:

> So I was curious as to what some of the more experienced perl mongers
> out there have done to improve their Perl skills

Go over to comp.lang.perl.misc

Read every article. For each problem presented, write two
viable (tested) solutions, without using modules, based on
researching the problem and reading related references.

Purl Gurl

Alfred Vahau

2005-11-29, 3:56 am

Paul Lalli wrote:

>On 11/27/05, Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Tom,
>
>I do use Perl all day long just about every day, so I'm definately not
>in your situation. However, you may be interested in sites such as
>the "Perl Quiz of the W

" found at: http://perl.plover.com/qotw/
>
>They send out two quizzes every w

(one "beginner" and one more
>advanced). You can try to solve the quiz and send in your solution.
>After a w

, the various solutions are discussed.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Paul Lalli
>
>
A highly specialized case. Few years ago, I did student admin and taught
physics at the same time.
Taking decisions on student progress conditions required information
generated from Excel files.
These were compiled manually by others which took up to two w

s and I
became impatient and decided
to learn Perl to automate the process of data entry into Excel. I learnt
about Spreadsheet::ParseExcel
and Spreadsheet::WriteExcel modules and added later Win32::OLE to my
list of tools to survive in a Windows-centric
environment.

If you deal with Excel data a lot, then learning Perl can help automate
some of the tasks. It's addressing problems in one
particular computing environment but it's still Perl. Perhaps a hands on
approach.

Alfred Vahau
IT Services
University of Papua New Guinea

Randal L. Schwartz

2005-11-29, 6:57 pm

>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Yarrish <tom@yarrish.com> writes:

Tom> No I haven't read that one yet. I actually forgot about that one
Tom> until I heard your Perlcast interview over the w

end. ;)
Tom> Speaking of which, during the interview you mentioned a book that
Tom> contains all the articles you've writting over the years. Is that
Tom> book out or are you still working on it? I looked at O'Reilly's site
Tom> and didn't see it listed there.

Randal L. Schwartz Perl's of Wisdom, from Apress.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Randal L. Schwartz

2005-11-29, 6:57 pm

>>>>> "Randal" == Randal L Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes:

Randal> Randal L. Schwartz Perl's of Wisdom, from Apress.

And I can't believe I just wrote "Perl's" instead of "Perls". :)

"Caffiene! Work! Now!"

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

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