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ridicule about "cards"
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| anybody sick of being ridiculed about XP practices?
I think I'll stick with TDD, but the rest...time to cut losses.
A silver bullet must deal directly in relevant phenomenology, and be
undetectable.
The problem is relevance of practices out of the box to actual
problems.
With TDD you can always say you're not writing tests because it's all
code. With the rest of the practices, if you look like you're doing a
stupid dance, you're going to get ridiculed.
Best.
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| Rich wrote:
> With TDD you can always say you're not writing tests because it's all
> code. Â_Â_WithÂ_theÂ_restÂ_ofÂ_theÂ_practices,
Â_Â_ifÂ_youÂ_lookÂ_likeÂ_you'reÂ_doingÂ_
a
> stupid dance,Â_Â_you'reÂ_goingÂ_toÂ_getÂ_ridicu
led.
Mahatma Gandhi once said:
1. first they ignore you
2. then they laugh at you
3. then they fight you
4. then you get to ride the lead tank down their main street
It sounds like you are up to stage 2.
However, if you are not actually doing all of XP (whole team, common
workspace, onsite customer, etc.), then only do the part that's clearly and
immediately working. Using index cards is a goal, not a rule.
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/Z Land[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-13, 10:00 pm |
| On 13 Apr 2006 09:02:06 -0700, "Rich" <usidoesit@yahoo.com> wrote:
>anybody sick of being ridiculed about XP practices?
>
>I think I'll stick with TDD, but the rest...time to cut losses.
>
>A silver bullet must deal directly in relevant phenomenology, and be
>undetectable.
>
>The problem is relevance of practices out of the box to actual
>problems.
>
>With TDD you can always say you're not writing tests because it's all
>code. With the rest of the practices, if you look like you're doing a
>stupid dance, you're going to get ridiculed.
I sit down with managers and executives all over the country, and even
occasionally in other lands. I always pull out some index cards (lovely
custom-printed ones with my logo, in a neat leather case) and use them to
demonstrate what I'm talking about.
No one even flinches: they understand and respond.
YMMV, of course.
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| Phlip 2006-04-13, 10:00 pm |
| Ron Jeffries wrote:
> I sit down with managers and executives all over the country, and even
> occasionally in other lands. I always pull out some index cards (lovely
> custom-printed ones with my logo, in a neat leather case) and use them to
> demonstrate what I'm talking about.
>
> No one even flinches: they understand and respond.
Dude, in terms of the Dumbo's Magic Feather Technique, it ain't the feather
doing the flying there...
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| My mileage has varied. You are Ron Jeffries, famous author. To what
extent does your reputation part the red sea before you even get there?
Or to what extent now does your reputation create a bubble for you?
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| J. David Boyd 2006-04-14, 7:01 pm |
| Ron Jeffries wrote:
>
> I sit down with managers and executives all over the country, and even
> occasionally in other lands. I always pull out some index cards (lovely
> custom-printed ones with my logo, in a neat leather case) and use them to
> demonstrate what I'm talking about.
>
> No one even flinches: they understand and respond.
>
> YMMV, of course.
>
Do you mean that the cards are entirely printed, with the topics you
want to discuss on them, or just the logo and header, and you then write
on them?
And, could we see a sample somewhere?
Dave
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| Ok thanks. Could you tell me what problems do index cards solve?
Is it this physically co-located thing? That would be a situation
where e-mail would be seen as ridiculous then. Currently e-mail is
now seen as approporiate and cards as ridiculous. To reverse that we'd
all have to be in the same room. Sound about right?
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| Rich wrote:
> Ok thanks. Could you tell me what problems do index cards solve?
>
> Is it this physically co-located thing? That would be a situation
> where e-mail would be seen as ridiculous then. Currently e-mail is
> now seen as approporiate and cards as ridiculous. To reverse that we'd
> all have to be in the same room. Sound about right?
The ability to use cards is a goal, and indicates these details:
- your "backlog" is super-short, and your Customer Team manages
the real feature funnel
- you have so few bugs you don't need a bugbase, and you
continuously test
- your team is collocated, and working on a super-short list of
features
- your system has enough Ubiquitous Language and System Metaphor
that new features are easy to name
- feature specifications are stored in acceptance tests, not
paperwork
- your customer team is onsite, and they author tests
After you have all those things, cards become the simplest way to store and
pass around the names of features.
You can use cards as you achieve all those things. You won't automatically
get all those things just because Ron Jeffries graced your meeting room
with a deck of index cards!
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-15, 6:59 pm |
| On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 02:42:59 GMT, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Dude, in terms of the Dumbo's Magic Feather Technique, it ain't the feather
>doing the flying there...
As sometimes happens, Phlip, I fail to understand what you're getting at.
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-15, 6:59 pm |
| On 14 Apr 2006 07:31:16 -0700, "Rich" <usidoesit@yahoo.com> wrote:
>My mileage has varied. You are Ron Jeffries, famous author. To what
>extent does your reputation part the red sea before you even get there?
> Or to what extent now does your reputation create a bubble for you?
Famous author and a few bucks will get me a burger at Zukey Lake Tavern.
I don't think it's my reputation so much as the fact that I don't blush and go
uh, uh, duh, when I pull out the cards. I could be wrong, of course.
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-15, 6:59 pm |
| On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:34:03 GMT, "J. David Boyd" <jdboyd@tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
>Do you mean that the cards are entirely printed, with the topics you
>want to discuss on them, or just the logo and header, and you then write
>on them?
>
>And, could we see a sample somewhere?
They have a grid, my logo, name, email, web address, in a light gray ink, on
both sides. They look like the grid part of my website, only paper.
Aside from the few framed and on display at high-end galleries around the
country, the best way to see one is to stop by where I'm programming on the
street with my hat on the sidewalk, and ask to see one. Toss a coin into the hat
for best results. Or I suppose I could stick a stamp on one and mail it to you
....
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| Ron Jeffries wrote:
> As sometimes happens, Phlip, I fail to understand what you're getting at.
I cannot fly with my ears. Sitting at a conference table and whipping out
the Magic Feather (of story cards) will not work for me.
You can fly with your ears. Sitting at a conference table and whipping out
your Magic Feather is not what's helping you fly.
(I'm depending on you saw enough of the movie Dumbo here...)
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| Robert Atkins 2006-04-17, 7:59 am |
| On 2006-04-15, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@acm.org> wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2006 07:31:16 -0700, "Rich" <usidoesit@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Famous author and a few bucks will get me a burger at Zukey Lake Tavern.
The point Rich is making is that by the time a company executive
has agreed to meet with you to talk about development processes,
80% of the work has been done. Rich is in a situation where his
management and collegues don't even know or care they have a problem,
much less are interested in challenging and innovative techniques
that could help solve it.
Cheers, Robert.
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-17, 7:59 am |
| On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:31:49 GMT, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I cannot fly with my ears. Sitting at a conference table and whipping out
>the Magic Feather (of story cards) will not work for me.
>
>You can fly with your ears. Sitting at a conference table and whipping out
>your Magic Feather is not what's helping you fly.
>
>(I'm depending on you saw enough of the movie Dumbo here...)
Maybe you can fly, Phlip. How do you know?
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-17, 7:59 am |
| On 17 Apr 2006 10:59:49 GMT, Robert Atkins <ratkins_usenet@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>On 2006-04-15, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@acm.org> wrote:
>
>The point Rich is making is that by the time a company executive
>has agreed to meet with you to talk about development processes,
>80% of the work has been done. Rich is in a situation where his
>management and collegues don't even know or care they have a problem,
>much less are interested in challenging and innovative techniques
>that could help solve it.
Then Rich's problem isn't cards, it's getting a meeting. Once he gets a meeting,
he can lay his cards on the table or project PowerPoint on the wall.
A thing about cards is that when you sit down right across from, or beside the
people you're talking to, and put the cards down as you talk, they are engaged.
It's a conversation, a game, an intimate kind of situation. You can point at the
cards, slide them around, hand them one to look at. You're together with the
other folks, not off in the dark somewhere projecting slides and voice at them.
Folks can always do whatever they're comfortable with, of course. And maybe they
would benefit from considering doing things they're not comfortable with, that
might work better.
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
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| > After you have all those things, cards become the simplest way to store and pass around the names of features.
Couldn't you save some trees and just use an ordinary deck of poker
cards? There'd be so few of them you'd know the king of hearts was
this feature, 10 of diamonds this other feature. You just reuse the
cards instead of tearing them up.
The features get recorded quickly in the acceptance tests...
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| Daniel T. 2006-04-17, 7:00 pm |
| In article <ee1742d29aj25cnfdgnkh7eiq5fu6oem09@4ax.com>,
Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@acm.org> wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2006 10:59:49 GMT, Robert Atkins <ratkins_usenet@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>
> Then Rich's problem isn't cards, it's getting a meeting. Once he gets a
> meeting,
I don't think its cards or a meeting. What's required is a thorough
understanding of the subject matter, so that any objection can be
countered. Unlike in the board room, people in the trenches' cynicism
has a more vocal nature.
There's a skill to selling, getting someone to nod their head as you
present your ideas rather than them looking for holes. Maybe Mr. Atkins
doesn't have that skill like you do?
Robert,
To paraphrase Grant Cardone, its not their responsibility to decide to
adopt XP, it is your responsibility to support them with the
information, enthusiasm, and encouragement to start using XP right now.
--
Magic depends on tradition and belief. It does not welcome observation,
nor does it profit by experiment. On the other hand, science is based
on experience; it is open to correction by observation and experiment.
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| Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Maybe you can fly, Phlip. How do you know?
Sure! Just not with my ears!!
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
| |
| Daniel T. 2006-04-17, 7:00 pm |
| In article <W1P0g.3871$mu2.707@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net>,
Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ron Jeffries wrote:
>
>
> Sure! Just not with my ears!!
That's Phlip, always a reviewer, never an author... Hell that's a step
further than me. :-)
--
Magic depends on tradition and belief. It does not welcome observation,
nor does it profit by experiment. On the other hand, science is based
on experience; it is open to correction by observation and experiment.
| |
| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-17, 7:00 pm |
| On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:03:26 GMT, "Daniel T." <postmaster@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>I don't think its cards or a meeting. What's required is a thorough
>understanding of the subject matter, so that any objection can be
>countered.
If one doesn't have a thorough understanding of a subject, it would be unwise to
sell it anywhere, whether in the board room or the team room. I think I might
suggest selling something rather less, such as "I'd like to try this for a
while," or "I'd like the team to try this for a while," rather than something
more like "we ought to cut the entire corporation over to this."
And it's important, as well, to recognize that groups are mostly brought around
to new ideas one person at a time, not all at once in a big presentation. That
applies in both the board room and the team room.
>Unlike in the board room, people in the trenches' cynicism
>has a more vocal nature.
It must be that you've not spent much time in the same board rooms as I have.
I've encountered plenty of very vocal people in those situations. It's my
everlasting pleasure that not much that I do requires me to show up in those
places. They don't understand my outfit, anyway. ;->
>
>There's a skill to selling, getting someone to nod their head as you
>present your ideas rather than them looking for holes. Maybe Mr. Atkins
>doesn't have that skill like you do?
A quick review of the responses I get to what I say around here suggests that I
don't have that much skill myself. ;-> What's important, I imagine, is not to
sell more than one has. As for sales skills, they are easily attained, though
they mostly do not come naturally to us techies.
>
>Robert,
>
>To paraphrase Grant Cardone, its not their responsibility to decide to
>adopt XP, it is your responsibility to support them with the
>information, enthusiasm, and encouragement to start using XP right now.
Oh yes.
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
| |
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| I'm not trying to sell, I'm trying to solve problems, which doesn't
require comprehensive understanding, only relevant information.
I just need to know what sort of problems cards solve if I'm going to
continue to advocate using them to manage me.
| |
| Ron Jeffries 2006-04-17, 9:59 pm |
| On 17 Apr 2006 12:13:50 -0700, "Rich" <usidoesit@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm not trying to sell, I'm trying to solve problems, which doesn't
>require comprehensive understanding, only relevant information.
>
>I just need to know what sort of problems cards solve if I'm going to
>continue to advocate using them to manage me.
Perhaps not everything we do is about solving problems, but about improving
things that are already OK ... if things are already OK..
Cards are easy to use, very flexible, tend to bring people together in a sort of
equality. They can be used to make very clear wall displays of progress. They
can be used to discuss design issues.
Cards are the fastest way I know of for a team to estimate the features of a
project, or for the whole team to plan it out.
They're worth trying, based on my experience. On the other hand, I don't get a
royalty on them, so it's certainly entirely OK with me if folks don't give them
a try.
Regards,
--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.
| |
|
| Daniel T. wrote:
> That's Phlip, always a reviewer, never an author... Hell that's a step
> further than me. :-)
Dive in, homeboy. You asked for it:
http://www.zeroplayer.com/cgi-bin/w...tUserInterfaces
No feathers, no ears, all flight time.
"Magic is just nature unimpeded." --Jane Roberts.
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
| |
| Daniel T. 2006-04-18, 8:03 am |
| In article <0PZ0g.10786$%m4.1773@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
"Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Daniel T. wrote:
>
>
> Dive in, homeboy. You asked for it:
>
> http://www.zeroplayer.com/cgi-bin/w...tUserInterfaces
Nice acknowledgments page. Don't I even get a side bar mention for
egging you on all these years? :-)
I was asked to write a book once, Design Patterns using Python or some
such. Like I know enough Python idioms to pull that off... Oh well, I'll
have my 15 minutes one day. :-)
--
Magic depends on tradition and belief. It does not welcome observation,
nor does it profit by experiment. On the other hand, science is based
on experience; it is open to correction by observation and experiment.
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| Thank you.
Estimation, planning, design, feedback, focal point. That's what
I needed to know.
First thought is my retort should've been "email is not efficient",
rather than the dumb defense with presupposed attack--"how closely do
you want to track things".
Second thought is my response should've been "email doesn't track
closely enough". Momentarily  .
On second thought email, or other project tracking tools, aren't
close tracking at all. Such tools can't get close enough compared to
cards. The issue with email/dotproject etc is that they don't get
close enough, not the other way around.
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| Rich wrote:
> Here is your Apollo-13 whack pack.
Mission Control: All right, Aquarius, this is Houston.
Uh, do you have a flight plan up there?
Aquarius: Affirmative, Andy. Uh, Jack's got one right here.
Mission Control: We need you to rip the cover off.
Aquarius: With pleasure.
--
Phlip
[url]http://www.greencheese.org/ZLand[/url] <-- NOT a blog!!!
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