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| Robert C. Martin 2004-04-19, 7:35 pm |
| On 19 Apr 2004 14:50:27 -0700, xboxgamedev@hotmail.com (Frank N.
Stein) wrote:
>I found this rebuttal to the Wired XP article to be extremely cogent:
>
>
>It brings up several factors of XP that I have always felt and am glad
>to see someone else share my opinions with well thought out writing.
>
>http://www.softwarereality.com/lifecycle/xp/wired.jsp
>
>also http://www.softwarereality.com/ExtremeProgramming.jsp has a
>number of links to good articles that demonstrate the reality of xp,
>not just the hype.
Although Matt Stephens, the proprietor of the "software reality" [sic]
site, is a good writer and a good thinker, he unfortunately isn't
helping the hype issue. The site is mostly negative misinformation
about XP. Data is not something the site specializes in. (Example:
the article above talks about the "sinister" undercurrent of "the XP
hype machine." That's just negative hype.)
His book, written with Doug Rosenberg, is a professional travesty in
my opinion. Instead of taking a serious look at the reasons why XP
works, or fails in a given environment, the two authors patted
themselves on the back and congratulated each other for their clever
wit and satirical songs. The book, like many of the articles on the
XP Reality site, does not make the contribution that it could have.
IMHO Matt is really missing the boat. If he wants to provide a
balanced view about XP, he's going about it the wrong way. He ought
to be researching the successes and failures of XP and learning
something new, instead of simply preaching and re-preaching his
opinions and calling them "Software Reality".
-----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)
Object Mentor Inc.
unclebob @ objectmentor . com
800-338-6716
"Distinguishing between the author
and the writing is the essence of civilized debate."
-- Daniel Parker
| |
| Frank N. Stein 2004-04-20, 1:34 am |
| Of Course you feel that way Bob; you have a vested interest in XP.
The part I like about his writing is how he says that the XP zealot
crowd always labels the other side as, "misinformed", "uninformed",
"genetically defective" or whatever.
To you, anyone who doesn't like XP "just doesn't get it".
Maybe we do understand whats going on and don't like XP anyway;
something that defies your abilities to understand.
Someday you'll "get it" Bob, but in the meantime stop trying to tell
everyone that doesnt agree with you that they don't.
Frank
| |
| Robert C. Martin 2004-04-20, 10:46 am |
| On 19 Apr 2004 21:49:59 -0700, xboxgamedev@hotmail.com (Frank N.
Stein) wrote:
>Of Course you feel that way Bob; you have a vested interest in XP.
Matt and Doug have their own vested interests. Their motives are no
purer than mine.
>The part I like about his writing is how he says that the XP zealot
>crowd always labels the other side as, "misinformed", "uninformed",
>"genetically defective" or whatever.
Look inside that sentence and see who is labeling whom.
>To you, anyone who doesn't like XP "just doesn't get it".
Look inside that sentence and see who is putting words into whose
mouth.
>Maybe we do understand whats going on and don't like XP anyway;
>something that defies your abilities to understand.
Look inside that sentence and see who is ascribing thoughts and
beliefs to whom.
I am quite sure that there are folks who do not want to work in an XP
environment. I am quite sure that there are folks who understand XP
quite well and who don't care for it. That's their right, and I'm
fine with it. I work with the people who *want* to learn OO, XP,
Agile, and good software development principles, patterns, and
practices. And that's fine with me.
My reading of Matt and Dougs writings convinces me that they are on an
anti-hype mission. As one Amazon reviewer of their book says:
"Hype is bad, anti-hype is worse. "
There are a number of books and articles that reasonably question XP.
The authors have taken the time to understand the issues, and state
their objections and questions in careful and thoughtful ways. I
think it's a shame that Matt and Doug didn't do the same. They could
have made a contribution.
>Someday you'll "get it" Bob, but in the meantime stop trying to tell
>everyone that doesnt agree with you that they don't.
Look inside that sentence and see who is creating innuendo about whom.
-----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)
Object Mentor Inc.
unclebob @ objectmentor . com
800-338-6716
"Distinguishing between the author
and the writing is the essence of civilized debate."
-- Daniel Parker
| |
| Scott Kinney 2004-04-20, 10:46 am |
| Please, a little parallel construction goes a very long way.
"Robert C. Martin" <unclebob@objectmentor.com> wrote in message
news:9f4a80p1g5e82scg39u5ordd71p3j0cvci@
4ax.com...
> On 19 Apr 2004 21:49:59 -0700, xboxgamedev@hotmail.com (Frank N.
> Stein) wrote:
>
>
> Look inside that sentence and see who is labeling whom.
>
>
> Look inside that sentence and see who is putting words into whose
> mouth.
>
>
> Look inside that sentence and see who is ascribing thoughts and
> beliefs to whom.
>
>
> Look inside that sentence and see who is creating innuendo about whom.
>
| |
| Ilja Preuß 2004-04-20, 2:35 pm |
| Frank N. Stein wrote:
> Of Course you feel that way Bob; you have a vested interest in XP.
Well, just for the record, I feel that way, too - and the only interest in
XP I have is using it at work to improve our projects.
> The part I like about his writing is how he says that the XP zealot
> crowd always labels the other side as, "misinformed", "uninformed",
> "genetically defective" or whatever.
Interestingly, it works also the other way around - when someone calls an
opinion about XP misinformed, he is simply always labeled an XP zealot.
> To you, anyone who doesn't like XP "just doesn't get it".
To me, like XP as much as you want, I don't care. But if you say things
about XP which aren't true in my experience, don't be surprised if I object.
> Maybe we do understand whats going on and don't like XP anyway;
"Maybe"? Matt and Doug are very vocal about there understanding of XP, so
it's quite hard to miss that they have a whole bunch of misconceptions about
it.
> something that defies your abilities to understand.
Very serious rudeness objection.
> Someday you'll "get it" Bob, but in the meantime stop trying to tell
> everyone that doesnt agree with you that they don't.
I have never seen Bob saying "you don't get it" to anyone.
Take care, Ilja
| |
| zwetan 2004-04-20, 2:35 pm |
|
"Frank N. Stein" <xboxgamedev@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c6d6107.0404191350.51fca5f9@posting.google.com...
> I found this rebuttal to the Wired XP article to be extremely cogent:
[snip]
> Enjoy!
> Frank
hilarious TROLL with FUD!
zwetan
| |
| Frank N. Stein 2004-04-20, 4:33 pm |
| Look, the thing I like the most about that site and the book is they
spend 400 pages debunking your circular logic and blame game.
I don't have the time or inclination to bother, but I'm glad someone
has....
The post was meant to lead people to that web site; not get into an
endless debate with you over the issues
Enjoy!
Frank
| |
| Otis Bricker 2004-04-20, 8:31 pm |
| "Scott Kinney" <sakinney@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:gpidnff_7MMjvxjdRVn-
jg@comcast.com:
> Please, a little parallel construction goes a very long way.
> "Robert C. Martin" <unclebob@objectmentor.com> wrote in message
> news:9f4a80p1g5e82scg39u5ordd71p3j0cvci@
4ax.com...
>
>
>
Time to remove duplication?
Otis
| |
| zwetan 2004-04-20, 10:30 pm |
|
"Frank N. Stein" <xboxgamedev@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c6d6107.0404201140.91d188@posting.google.com...
> Look, the thing I like the most about that site and the book is they
> spend 400 pages debunking your circular logic and blame game.
>
> I don't have the time or inclination to bother, but I'm glad someone
> has....
>
> The post was meant to lead people to that web site; not get into an
> endless debate with you over the issues
>
> Enjoy!
> Frank
TROLL !
you are posting on a newsgroup dedicated for people interested
in XP methodology, expert or not ...
what your goal here ?? FUD ??
and for that:
http://www.softwarereality.com/ExtremeProgramming.jsp
I really don't get why some people have invested time and money
to the point to write a book only to tell other people
to not use/do some methodology ...
and even at first I say to myself "humm why not..perharps they got good
reasons to do that"
but common !!!
just reading that:
"Design After First Testing, and Constant Refactoring After Programming"
DAFT CRAP in red letter...<sic poor world>
or that:
"Is XP really the panacea for our software development sins? Is Kent Beck
really the new Messiah of software development? Possibly not..."
and listening that:
http://www.softwarereality.com/lifecycle/xp/naughty.wav
WOW all of these is hillarious and insanely stupid!
humm let's investigate further: (and I dare you to call me an XP zealot, I'm
not!)
here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...8132420-0041648
book info:
"Text provides a thorough and systematic analysis of XP practices, proposing
better ways of achieving XP's agile goals that are applicable to a much
wider range of projects. [...]"
ah ok now I get it,
these are people using XP popularity and trying to sell their own stuff
see -> "proposing better ways of achieving XP"
humm now go back to the original website:
http://www.softwarereality.com/MattStephens.jsp
"He co-authored Extreme Programming Refactored: The Case Against XP (you
might find it mentioned in passing on this website), and is also
co-authoring "Agile Development With the ICONIX Process" (due out Q4 2004)."
sorry mister, that sort of crappy marketing/commercial manipulation DOES NOT
WORK
I WILL NOT TRADE 2 BARREL OF ICONIX AGAINST MY BARREL OF XP !!!
zwetan
| |
| Frank N. Stein 2004-04-21, 2:32 am |
| Anything else you'd like to add while your foaming at the mouth like a
rabid zealot?
I'm not here to sell iconix or any other methodology -- I'm here
because most people on the sidelines are too afraid to post their
questions or doubts here, for fear of the constant trouncing they will
receive as a result.
For those people, they can visit that site for some information about
XP that they won't find on "other" XP sites, plain and simple.
As usual your (the collective your) conspiracy theories are unfounded.
I'm neither a troll nor salesman, like the two or three most constant
posters to this list are.
Frank N. Stein
"zwetan" <newsgroups@zwetan.com> wrote in message news:<c64k3p$jn8$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>...
> "Frank N. Stein" <xboxgamedev@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8c6d6107.0404201140.91d188@posting.google.com...
>
> TROLL !
>
> you are posting on a newsgroup dedicated for people interested
> in XP methodology, expert or not ...
>
> what your goal here ?? FUD ??
>
>
> and for that:
> http://www.softwarereality.com/ExtremeProgramming.jsp
>
> I really don't get why some people have invested time and money
> to the point to write a book only to tell other people
> to not use/do some methodology ...
>
> and even at first I say to myself "humm why not..perharps they got good
> reasons to do that"
> but common !!!
>
> just reading that:
> "Design After First Testing, and Constant Refactoring After Programming"
> DAFT CRAP in red letter...<sic poor world>
>
> or that:
> "Is XP really the panacea for our software development sins? Is Kent Beck
> really the new Messiah of software development? Possibly not..."
>
> and listening that:
> http://www.softwarereality.com/lifecycle/xp/naughty.wav
>
>
> WOW all of these is hillarious and insanely stupid!
>
> humm let's investigate further: (and I dare you to call me an XP zealot, I'm
> not!)
>
> here:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...8132420-0041648
>
> book info:
> "Text provides a thorough and systematic analysis of XP practices, proposing
> better ways of achieving XP's agile goals that are applicable to a much
> wider range of projects. [...]"
>
> ah ok now I get it,
> these are people using XP popularity and trying to sell their own stuff
> see -> "proposing better ways of achieving XP"
>
>
> humm now go back to the original website:
> http://www.softwarereality.com/MattStephens.jsp
>
> "He co-authored Extreme Programming Refactored: The Case Against XP (you
> might find it mentioned in passing on this website), and is also
> co-authoring "Agile Development With the ICONIX Process" (due out Q4 2004)."
>
>
> sorry mister, that sort of crappy marketing/commercial manipulation DOES NOT
> WORK
>
> I WILL NOT TRADE 2 BARREL OF ICONIX AGAINST MY BARREL OF XP !!!
>
> zwetan
| |
| zwetan 2004-04-21, 2:32 am |
| > Anything else you'd like to add while your foaming at the mouth like a
> rabid zealot?
yeah one more thing, I blacklist useless troll post.
zwetan
| |
| Ilja Preuß 2004-04-21, 5:41 am |
| Frank N. Stein wrote:
> Look, the thing I like the most about that site and the book is they
> spend 400 pages debunking your circular logic and blame game.
>
> I don't have the time or inclination to bother, but I'm glad someone
> has....
Obviously you also don't have the time or inclination to find out what's
true and what's not. Bummer.
> The post was meant to lead people to that web site; not get into an
> endless debate with you over the issues
Well, with some minimal research you would have found that the site already
is quite well-known here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=s...eme-programming
Take care, Ilja
| |
| Jason Nocks 2004-04-21, 11:40 am |
| Frank N. Stein wrote:
> Of Course you feel that way Bob; you have a vested interest in XP.
>
> The part I like about his writing is how he says that the XP zealot
> crowd always labels the other side as, "misinformed", "uninformed",
> "genetically defective" or whatever.
>
> To you, anyone who doesn't like XP "just doesn't get it".
If you actually read a number of the posts here, you'll see many
statements of *this works for me* and *YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)*, etc.
In particular, Ron Jeffries often signs his posts:
"I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you."
This is quite the opposite of your accusations.
> Maybe we do understand whats going on and don't like XP anyway;
> something that defies your abilities to understand.
I don't think anyone here takes issue to someone who simply doesn't
"like XP". If you don't like XP, fine, don't practice it.
Further, if you don't like XP, why are you posting to the XP newsgroup?
Why do you feel compelled to post negative comments to a newsgroup for
people who *are* interested in XP? Further, why do you seem to be
surprised at getting a negative reaction to your negative posts here?!
> Someday you'll "get it" Bob, but in the meantime stop trying to tell
> everyone that doesnt agree with you that they don't.
The problem is when someone states something incorrectly about XP, or
that XP can't possibly work. Clearly it *can* work, because companies
have been doing it for years.
How does defending that something *can* work imply that *you* must like it?
> Frank
Cheers,
Jason Nocks
SourceXtreme, Inc.
http://www.sourcextreme.com/
| |
| Phlip 2004-04-21, 12:53 pm |
| Jason Nocks wrote:
>
> If you actually read a number of the posts here, you'll see many
> statements of *this works for me* and *YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)*, etc.
When someone's working style is threatened, they go thru phases - shock,
denial, anger, guilt, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
You are merely witnessing the denial phase.
--
Phlip
http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?Te...tUserInterfaces
| |
| Robert C. Martin 2004-04-21, 1:38 pm |
| On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:04:11 GMT, "Phlip" <phlip_cpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jason Nocks wrote:
>
>
>When someone's working style is threatened, they go thru phases - shock,
>denial, anger, guilt, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
>
>You are merely witnessing the denial phase.
WE ARE NOT!
-----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)
Object Mentor Inc.
unclebob @ objectmentor . com
800-338-6716
"Distinguishing between the author
and the writing is the essence of civilized debate."
-- Daniel Parker
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