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Bill Gates is for big raise in H-1B visas
|
|
| indiaBPOking 2006-03-20, 6:56 pm |
| http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1654992,0002.htm
S Rajagopalan
Washington, March 21, 2006
Flying into Washington DC on a rare visit, Microsoft chief Bill Gates
has added his powerful voice to the demand that US Congress clear the
decks for a hefty increase in the number of H-1B visas.
Gates, faced with the shortage of Indian and other foreign techies,
decided to come down to the US capital and personally lobby for an end
to visa woes that have affected the operations of Microsoft and other
US giants.
The visit came amid moves to come up with a legislation in the Senate
to raise the H-1B cap from 65,000 visas a year to 115,000, with a
built-in provision for 20% increase every year. "The high skills
immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing. This is gigantic for
us," the world's richest man told the Washington Post and pointed
to the irony of Indian techies having to go back after doing advanced
computer courses in the US because of the visa shortage.
"It's kind of ironic to have somebody graduate from Stanford
Computer Science Department and there's not enough H1B visas, so they
have to go back to India," he said, adding: "And I have people who
have been hired, who are just sitting on the border waiting."
Beginning fiscal 2004, the H-1B visas are down to 65,000 from a peak of
195,000 allowed for the preceding three years. The drop is so
precipitous that the whole H-1B quota is now exhausted well before the
start of the fiscal year.
Gates grumbled that he has a hard time understanding the logic of those
who decry the outsourcing of American jobs, but are still reluctant to
the entry of high-skilled people who are catalysts for US growth.
Alongside the move to raise the H-1B cap, Gates backs the Bush
administration's plan to boost the teaching of math and science in US
high schools as part of the long-term goal to expand the supply of
qualified Americans for tech jobs.
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-20, 6:56 pm |
|
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006, indiaBPOking wrote:
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1654992,0002.htm
Of course this puff piece comes straight from India sources....
> S Rajagopalan
>
> Washington, March 21, 2006
>
> Flying into Washington DC on a rare visit, Microsoft chief Bill Gates
> has added his powerful voice to the demand that US Congress clear the
> decks for a hefty increase in the number of H-1B visas.
>
> Gates, faced with the shortage of Indian and other foreign techies,
> decided to come down to the US capital and personally lobby for an end
> to visa woes that have affected the operations of Microsoft and other
> US giants.
I or we should feel sorry for BG, the biggest monopolist in existence,
ever?
> The visit came amid moves to come up with a legislation in the Senate
> to raise the H-1B cap from 65,000 visas a year to 115,000, with a
> built-in provision for 20% increase every year.
A pure giveaway to the IT corporations.
"The high skills
> immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing. This is gigantic for
> us," the world's richest man
Who just wants to get richer.
told the Washington Post and pointed
> to the irony of Indian techies having to go back after doing advanced
> computer courses in the US because of the visa shortage.
Aw, how terrible. Go back to India where they will _surely_ get a job at a
lower salary and maybe even for a longer fraction of their lifetime.
> "It's kind of ironic to have somebody graduate from Stanford
> Computer Science Department and there's not enough H1B visas, so they
> have to go back to India," he said, adding: "And I have people who
> have been hired, who are just sitting on the border waiting."
I have little problem with foreigners coming to the USA to get the best
education in the world so they can go back to their homes and make life
better there.
> Beginning fiscal 2004, the H-1B visas are down to 65,000 from a peak of
> 195,000 allowed for the preceding three years. The drop is so
> precipitous that the whole H-1B quota is now exhausted well before the
> start of the fiscal year.
This is all part of the ITAA propaganda that avoids the reality of cheap
labor for in-the-USA jobs that the employers won't even consider people
already in the USA.
> Gates grumbled that he has a hard time understanding the logic of those
> who decry the outsourcing of American jobs, but are still reluctant to
> the entry of high-skilled people who are catalysts for US growth.
Funny, the trend has been to lay off US guys who are already proven
workers and replace them with foreigners on H1b visas. Has the "shortage
myth" been converted into a George Orwell "Animal Farm" doubletalk? Gates
doesn't understand that our people don't like moving US jobs from US soil
but our people don't like it that non-US people get brought in for those
US jobs on US soil? He doesn't understand that logic?
> Alongside the move to raise the H-1B cap, Gates backs the Bush
> administration's plan to boost the teaching of math and science in US
> high schools as part of the long-term goal to expand the supply of
> qualified Americans for tech jobs.
Sure, any excuse to divert attention from the real reason to raise the
H-1b caps, now. Long term goal? When MS hires only one percent of its
applicants? What is the USA supposed to do with the other 99%? Have them
work off their school debt as a Walmart shelf-loader?
>
>
| |
|
| Straydog wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006, indiaBPOking wrote:
>
>
> Sure, any excuse to divert attention from the real reason to raise the
> H-1b caps, now. Long term goal? When MS hires only one percent of its
> applicants? What is the USA supposed to do with the other 99%? Have them
> work off their school debt as a Walmart shelf-loader?
How come Larry Ellison of Oracle isn't touting the IT labour shortage
like Gates? He's an open and honest monopolist who said that IT was a
mature industry and wouldn't be the job engine of the future. Outside
of sales and consulting, a lot of the stateside technical Oracle jobs
are already outsourced with much of the additional R&D hirings going on
overseas.
| |
| rkusenet 2006-03-20, 9:55 pm |
|
"rrc" <rrcolby@go.com> wrote in message
news:1142904947.829607.274770@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> How come Larry Ellison of Oracle isn't touting the IT labour shortage
> like Gates? He's an open and honest monopolist who said that IT was a
> mature industry and wouldn't be the job engine of the future. Outside
> of sales and consulting, a lot of the stateside technical Oracle jobs
> are already outsourced with much of the additional R&D hirings going on
> overseas.
Oracle has a huge presence in India, with many of them doing working
in their core products like database engine.
http://www.oracle.com/global/in/pressroom/stays.html
http://www.redherring.com/article.aspx?a=15241
Both Oracle and Microsoft are doing the right thing. Hire where
they will get good engineers. Fire where they will get the likes
of Terry Lomax, Gill Bentry, RazorFace.
| |
|
| rkusenet wrote:
> Oracle has a huge presence in India, with many of them doing working
> in their core products like database engine.
>
> http://www.oracle.com/global/in/pressroom/stays.html
>
> http://www.redherring.com/article.aspx?a=15241
>
> Both Oracle and Microsoft are doing the right thing. Hire where they will get good
> engineers. Fire where they will get the likes of Terry Lomax, Gill Bentry, RazorFace.
Yeah, but Oracle's being honest about its needs. For the most part, the
Oracle 9 to 10+ line is relatively mature and Ellison has acknowledged
it. He doesn't go to universities and tell kids to study computer
science. He knows that he doesn't need them whereas Gates has been
touting himself as the godfather of technology all over the place to
drum up applicants with high GPAs.
If anything, students are better off looking at attending medical
school or a top ten law program, since a 3.8+ GPA is needed to get an
interview at MS anyways.
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-21, 7:56 am |
|
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
> rkusenet wrote:
>
> Yeah, but Oracle's being honest about its needs. For the most part, the
> Oracle 9 to 10+ line is relatively mature and Ellison has acknowledged
> it. He doesn't go to universities and tell kids to study computer
> science. He knows that he doesn't need them whereas Gates has been
> touting himself as the godfather of technology all over the place to
> drum up applicants with high GPAs.
>
> If anything, students are better off looking at attending medical
> school or a top ten law program, since a 3.8+ GPA is needed to get an
> interview at MS anyways.
That is pretty much the case at any employer of SW IT people, anyway, if
you are born in the USA and applying to a US company in the USA. But if
you were born in India, they will definitely interview all of the
applicants and pick the guy who they think will work cheapest and they
won't care what the guy can actually do.
>
| |
| T.Keating 2006-03-21, 7:56 am |
| On 20 Mar 2006 16:03:37 -0800, "indiaBPOking" <indiabpoking@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Crosspost to British newsgroup...snipped.....
>http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1654992,0002.htm
>
>S Rajagopalan
>
>Washington, March 21, 2006
>
>Flying into Washington DC on a rare visit, Microsoft chief Bill Gates
>has added his powerful voice to the demand that US Congress clear the
>decks for a hefty increase in the number of H-1B visas.
>
>Gates, faced with the shortage of Indian and other foreign techies,
>decided to come down to the US capital and personally lobby for an end
>to visa woes that have affected the operations of Microsoft and other
>US giants.
Bill Gates (the world's richest man in history) personally lobbies
congress for more cheap foreign labor.. (what's wrong with this
scenario?)
Even worse... He wants the US tax payer to subsidize his un-ending
greed!!
Every imported tech worker is one less US tech worker with a decent
job. On top of that, he will pay them substandard wages, increase
our societal burdens (Health, Energy, etc), and further depress wages
industry wide.
>
>The visit came amid moves to come up with a legislation in the Senate
>to raise the H-1B cap from 65,000 visas a year
A few more misstatements...
Current levels of newly H-1B's is around 125K a year..
65K cap for no US degree H-1B's.
20K cap for US degreed H-1B's.
40K est for uncapped categories of H-1B's.
> to 115,000, with a
>built-in provision for 20% increase every year. The high skills
I.E. an effective increase to 115,000+20,000+40,000 == 175,000 newly
imported H-1B's each year. (increasing by 23,000 each year
thereafter)..
Which will finish OFF most future employment opportunities for US
workers in the tech industry.
Back in the late 90's (boom years) 115,000 H-1B cap was enough to
depress contracting by almost 90%. Note: back then, there were NO
other H-1B categories.
The FY 2001 through 2003 cap increase (to 195K/yr+exempt ) was
enough to nearly wipe out all contracting & domestic hiring. This
flood of H-1B's screwed over RCG's and experienced techies alike.
>"The high skills
>immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing. This is gigantic for
It's well known that M$ doesn't hire the best and brightest..
M$ is unwilling to part with the appropriate $$.
M$ has a difficult time retaining the he few highly skilled
industry hires they have made in the past. (They see the M$ sweatshop
and flee as fast as possible.)
He wants more H-1B slaves to keep wages down and his keep his
remaining
domestic tech workers inline.. (save's on stock options..)
Lastly Billy G. and his company M$ runs like a sweatshop.
>us," the world's richest man told the Washington Post and pointed
>to the irony of Indian techies having to go back after doing advanced
>computer courses in the US because of the visa shortage.
The irony here is that M$ already has a sweatshop setup in India..
Last head count was around 3000...
He could pay those US grads a pittance and keep them in India..
But, no.. that's not good enough for Billy.
He wants to eliminate the little earning power US tech workers still
have..
>"It's kind of ironic to have somebody graduate from Stanford
>Computer Science Department and there's not enough H1B visas, so they
>have to go back to India," he said, adding: "And I have people who
>have been hired, who are just sitting on the border waiting."
>
>Beginning fiscal 2004, the H-1B visas are down to 65,000 from a peak of
>195,000 allowed for the preceding three years. The drop is so
>precipitous that the whole H-1B quota is now exhausted well before the
>start of the fiscal year.
>
>Gates grumbled that he has a hard time understanding the logic of those
>who decry the outsourcing of American jobs, but are still reluctant to
>the entry of high-skilled people who are catalysts for US growth.
>From M$ annual report for 2005..
"As of June 30, 2005, we employed approximately 61,000 people on a
full-time basis, 39,000 in the United States and 22,000
internationally."
"Of the total, 24,000 were in product research and development, 18,000
in sales and marketing, 12,000 in product support and consulting
services, 2,000 in manufacturing and distribution, and 5,000 in general
and administration."
Soo.. Billy G.. is asking for an H-1B increase 3 to 5 times than
that of his domestic R&D divisions !!! Billy G's greed knows no
boundary.. A true ass hole in his time..
>
>Alongside the move to raise the H-1B cap, Gates backs the Bush
>administration's plan to boost the teaching of math and science in US
>high schools as part of the long-term goal to expand the supply of
>qualified Americans for tech jobs.
Why?? Billy G's M$ isn't going to hire them... That strategy will just
add to the pool of over qualified Walmart stockers.
In summary, Bill Gates is willing to sacrifice tech careers for ALL US
workers, just to satisfy his never ending lust for more money!!
| |
| Kamal R. Prasad 2006-03-21, 7:56 am |
|
> doesn't understand that our people don't like moving US jobs from US soil
> but our people don't like it that non-US people get brought in for those
> US jobs on US soil? He doesn't understand that logic?
>
how many of those jobs that MSFT creates with its own wealth BELONG to
the american public? Do you hsve a legal argument that makes sense in a
courtroom?
>
> Sure, any excuse to divert attention from the real reason to raise the
> H-1b caps, now. Long term goal? When MS hires only one percent of its
> applicants? What is the USA supposed to do with the other 99%? Have them
> work off their school debt as a Walmart shelf-loader?
>
why don't you leave it to employers to decide how they want to spend
their money? Its THEIR money -not yours. You can shut down the H1b
program in totality if you like coz movement of personnel is a matter
which voters can decide upon.
regards
-kamal
[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
|
| Straydog wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
>
> That is pretty much the case at any employer of SW IT people, anyway, if
> you are born in the USA and applying to a US company in the USA. But if
> you were born in India, they will definitely interview all of the
> applicants and pick the guy who they think will work cheapest and they
> won't care what the guy can actually do.
Art, it's worse than that. Nowadays, even green card holders face
discrimination against H1-B holders in IT. Former colleagues of mine,
originally from Yugoslavia, India, and China, have had a hard time
getting interviews once their H1-Bs were converted to permanent
residency. The divide and conquer policies of employers has hit an all
time low, they really only want docile workers. If you're not in a
consulting/sales type of career, you can kiss your IT career goodbye.
At least US AMA medical schools ask their applicants to have a green
card before applying. That keeps the local labour arbitrage to a
minimum.
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
|
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, Kamal R. Pra wrote:
>
> how many of those jobs that MSFT creates with its own wealth BELONG to
> the american public?
At least one economic study showed that a full half of MS wealth was
stolen by virtue of its monoply.
Do you hsve a legal argument that makes sense in a
> courtroom?
Yes, many court cases have found MS to steal ideas, IP, and carry out
anti-competitive business practices AND MS has been ordered to pay
settlements and claims and there have been many of these cases and for
large sums of money, and even now, in Europe, there is a 700 million claim
against MS for anti-competitive practices there. Yes, MS _stole_ itself a
bunch of money.
> why don't you leave it to employers to decide how they want to spend
> their money?
OK, how about we let all the higher castes in India fire all the lower
castes for a couple of w s so they get real hungry, then offer to hire
them at half of what they made before.
Leave it to employers to decide how they want to spend money? Oh, easy,
they would decide -- just like Enron-- to just steal the money and not
spend any of it. What to do if they need food, housing...oh, they can just
steal that too. They would decide, yes.
> Its THEIR money -not yours.
My money is my money and their money came from my money and my work. All
the money THEY got they got from _profits_ made on work provided by
employees and on _porfits_ from when employees bought stuff from them.
None of those employers _created_ money out, of nothing, for themselves.
You can shut down the H1b
> program in totality if you like coz movement of personnel is a matter
> which voters can decide upon.
Untrue. Our politicos get paid by your India lobby to vote for Indian
interests.
> regards
> -kamal
>
>
>
>
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
|
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
> Straydog wrote:
>
> Art, it's worse than that. Nowadays, even green card holders face
> discrimination against H1-B holders in IT.
Yeah, I know. I consider greeen cards almost like citizens. GCs can quit
any job at any time and not get kicked out (at least according to the law)
and often have been around long enough to know about the shit. The H1-bs
have no choice; if they don't like some job they are in, their alternative
is to go back where they came from. I'm going to guess that most of them
are out of their home country and here because of "the American dream" and
its the same thing with the illegal Mexicans that come up here looooking
for anything.
Former colleagues of mine,
> originally from Yugoslavia, India, and China, have had a hard time
> getting interviews once their H1-Bs were converted to permanent
> residency. The divide and conquer policies of employers has hit an all
> time low, they really only want docile workers. If you're not in a
> consulting/sales type of career, you can kiss your IT career goodbye.
Hence, Billy G running around the country yelling "shortage, shortage" and
its a big lie. The biggest scam around is the cheap employer who won't pay
a decent wage and then cry "I can't find anyone" but won't tell anyone
what kind of wages he wants to pay.
> At least US AMA medical schools ask their applicants to have a green
> card before applying. That keeps the local labour arbitrage to a
> minimum.
Well, I don't think we have to worry about shortages of MDs, either. But,
again, I don't scorn the H1bs as much as the liar-theiving executives.
>
| |
| Marcos Martinez-Sancho 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
| "T.Keating" <tkgoogle@ktcnslt.com> dixit:
> Why?? Billy G's M$ isn't going to hire them... That strategy will just
> add to the pool of over qualified Walmart stockers.
>
> In summary, Bill Gates is willing to sacrifice tech careers for ALL US
> workers, just to satisfy his never ending lust for more money!!
Unfortunately, the long-term situation of US workers (and European, I
should add) is a lose-lose one.
They lose when US jobs are outsourced to India.
And they lose too when Indians come to the US to take US jobs.
My proposal is simple: make the H1B program akin to the Diversity Lottery
visa. Cap the amount of H1Bs granted to nationals of those countries that
send most of the tech workers to the US nowadays: India and China.
Marcos
| |
|
| Straydog wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
>
> Hence, Billy G running around the country yelling "shortage, shortage" and
> its a big lie. The biggest scam around is the cheap employer who won't pay
> a decent wage and then cry "I can't find anyone" but won't tell anyone
> what kind of wages he wants to pay.
That's why I respect Larry more than Bill; Larry told us, three or more
years ago, that IT was over and doesn't actively encourage anyone to
study computer science. Really, anyone with a college diploma can work
at Oracle in sales or consulting and that's all Ellison expects from
Americans. He's not a hypocrite in that regard. I'd imagine that when
you have billions of dollars stashed away, you'd shouldn't be so
insecure that you need to lie to the entire world to keep your
earnings.
>
> Well, I don't think we have to worry about shortages of MDs, either. But,
> again, I don't scorn the H1bs as much as the liar-theiving executives.
Agreed. What I don't understand is why someone, with a 3.9 GPA, would
want to work at a sweatshop like MS when he could attend most elite law
schools from Gtown to Yale or a US medical school and have a long term
career with prospects for stability and possible advancement than being
Steve Ballmer's bellhop.
| |
| rick++ 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
| Thats been MSFT's position since the program started.
Nothing new.
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
|
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
> Straydog wrote:
>
> That's why I respect Larry more than Bill; Larry told us, three or more
> years ago, that IT was over and doesn't actively encourage anyone to
> study computer science. Really, anyone with a college diploma can work
> at Oracle in sales or consulting and that's all Ellison expects from
> Americans. He's not a hypocrite in that regard. I'd imagine that when
> you have billions of dollars stashed away, you'd shouldn't be so
> insecure that you need to lie to the entire world to keep your
> earnings.
Well, he is filthy-stinking rich, too, but, yes, I'd respect the guy for
telling it like it is. BG, just like a lot of guys like him, have a
tendency to "buy into" their own rah-rah-rah BS, too.
>
> Agreed. What I don't understand is why someone, with a 3.9 GPA, would
> want to work at a sweatshop like MS when he could attend most elite law
> schools from Gtown to Yale or a US medical school and have a long term
> career with prospects for stability and possible advancement than being
> Steve Ballmer's bellhop.
>
>
I think personality has a lot to do with it. To do much law work, you have
to be an XXXXXXX, too. MD work: you have to deal with blood, piss, shit,
sweat, people with "Hey, doc, I got this pain here, what is it?" problems
which can drive some guys nuts and other guys will have their patients
sicing malpractice suits on them, etc. Up the manangement path and there
are some pressures I'd prefer not to deal with, too, including to
lie-cheat-steal, and by co-workers, and tons of other moral issues that
assholes find easy to deal with just because they are assholes.
| |
|
| Straydog wrote:
>
> I think personality has a lot to do with it. To do much law work, you have to be an
> XXXXXXX, too. MD work: you have to deal with blood, piss, shit, sweat, people with "Hey,
> doc, I got this pain here, what is it?" problems which can drive some guys nuts and other
> guys will have their patients sicing malpractice suits on them, etc. Up the manangement
> path and there are some pressures I'd prefer not to deal with, too, including to
> lie-cheat-steal, and by co-workers, and tons of other moral issues that assholes find easy
>to deal with just because they are assholes.
I think it's perhaps a holdover from the whole MSFT paper millionaires
of the late 80s to the late 90s Silicon Valley IPO frenzy which got
people excited about IT to begin with. Nowadays, the most a typical MS
engineer could expect is to have a job in the field.
As for the law option (ala 3.9 GPA/170 LSAT), a comp science grad would
more likely be a back office IP attorney at a name firm than a client
facing a-hole but he'd also earn a decent six figure income doing it.
Since these are kids, they're probably not aware of the upside. And
medicine, like you said, is a dirty job which doesn't appeal to office
workers, in general.
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-21, 9:59 pm |
|
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, rrc wrote:
> Straydog wrote:
>
> I think it's perhaps a holdover from the whole MSFT paper millionaires
> of the late 80s to the late 90s Silicon Valley IPO frenzy which got
> people excited about IT to begin with. Nowadays, the most a typical MS
> engineer could expect is to have a job in the field.
>
> As for the law option (ala 3.9 GPA/170 LSAT), a comp science grad would
> more likely be a back office IP attorney at a name firm than a client
> facing a-hole but he'd also earn a decent six figure income doing it.
> Since these are kids, they're probably not aware of the upside. And
> medicine, like you said, is a dirty job which doesn't appeal to office
> workers, in general.
>
>
Yeah, I agree. But, over the decades I've also heard lots of stories about
guys in "suit" jobs, in offices, cubicle farms, pressure-sweat crap and
they just up and quit and become preachers, sculpturers, artists and they
don't give a crap about the money any more. Neo-luddites. Hippies, etc. I
don't blame them. Me, I dream a lot about alternatives (lighthouse keeper,
photographer making photos for calendars [eg. scantily clad damsels], car
mechanic, and others) I could have done if I made other decisions long
ago. I also remember when I was interviewing prospective medical school
students (those that were sellected for interviews) and not a single one
of them had ever thought much about a possible malpractice suit against
them and how they would deal with it. They also have zero knowledge of
insurance company paperwork bullshit and how all the provider contracts
say all about what the provider will do and nothing about what the
insurance company will do (except that all parties will participate in
mandatory arbitration if there is a dispute). Good luck, Rob.
| |
|
| Straydog wrote:
>
> Yeah, I agree. But, over the decades I've also heard lots of stories about
> guys in "suit" jobs, in offices, cubicle farms, pressure-sweat crap and
> they just up and quit and become preachers, sculpturers, artists and they
> don't give a crap about the money any more. Neo-luddites. Hippies, etc. I
> don't blame them.
I guess the advantage here for lawyers, accts, and other non-techie
professionals is that there's always a bankruptcy filing or someone's
books that can be done on a contractual, part-time basis when one's
burnt out from working at a corporation.
> I also remember when I was interviewing prospective medical school
> students (those that were sellected for interviews) and not a single one
> of them had ever thought much about a possible malpractice suit against
> them and how they would deal with it. They also have zero knowledge of
> insurance company paperwork bullshit and how all the provider contracts
> say all about what the provider will do and nothing about what the
> insurance company will do (except that all parties will participate in
> mandatory arbitration if there is a dispute). Good luck, Rob.
Well, many medical students are still traditional college-to-MD. The
non-trads are still a minority though they're getting preference in
admissions nowadays provided the GPA/MCAT index is met. In fact,
non-nerdy engineers tend to do well in admissions provided that they
play team sports and write for journals.
Fortunately, I've lowered my expectations to just being able to make a
living with occasional bickerings with insurance companies and
non-paying customers. Since a few of my friends are attorneys, I've
some experience in mediation over getting paid and contractual
obligations.
| |
| Kamal R. Prasad 2006-03-22, 8:01 am |
|
Marcos Martinez-Sancho wrote:
> "T.Keating" <tkgoogle@ktcnslt.com> dixit:
>
>
> Unfortunately, the long-term situation of US workers (and European, I
> should add) is a lose-lose one.
>
> They lose when US jobs are outsourced to India.
>
> And they lose too when Indians come to the US to take US jobs.
>
how many of those jobs are funded by the US taxpayer? what if companies
relocaye entirely outside the US and then invite their US staff to the
new location?
> My proposal is simple: make the H1B program akin to the Diversity Lottery
> visa. Cap the amount of H1Bs granted to nationals of those countries that
> send most of the tech workers to the US nowadays: India and China.
>
you can even scrap all visas if you like. It doesn't mean that
employers would be willing to hire americans if they can get work done
for less elsewhere.
regards
-kamal
> Marcos
| |
| Straydog 2006-03-22, 8:01 am |
|
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006, Kamal R. Pra wrote:
>
> Marcos Martinez-Sancho wrote:
>
> how many of those jobs are funded by the US taxpayer?
All of the jobs that are _in_ fed, state, and local governments. All of
the jobs that are in private industry that gets government contracts.
what if companies
> relocaye entirely outside the US and then invite their US staff to the
> new location?
They don't have to do that. All they have to do is set up corporate
headquarters outside the USA. However, our IRS has stopped some of this
from happening and there has been noise in our congress.
> you can even scrap all visas if you like. It doesn't mean that
> employers would be willing to hire americans if they can get work done
> for less elsewhere.
And, from the high failure rates in globalization, get poorer quality for
less, too.
| |
| Zalek Bloom 2006-03-25, 6:58 pm |
| On 20 Mar 2006 16:03:37 -0800, "indiaBPOking" <indiabpoking@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1654992,0002.htm
>
>S Rajagopalan
>
>Washington, March 21, 2006
>
>Flying into Washington DC on a rare visit, Microsoft chief Bill Gates
>has added his powerful voice to the demand that US Congress clear the
>decks for a hefty increase in the number of H-1B visas.
>
>Gates, faced with the shortage of Indian and other foreign techies,
>decided to come down to the US capital and personally lobby for an end
>to visa woes that have affected the operations of Microsoft and other
>US giants.
>
>The visit came amid moves to come up with a legislation in the Senate
>to raise the H-1B cap from 65,000 visas a year to 115,000, with a
>built-in provision for 20% increase every year. "The high skills
>immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing. This is gigantic for
>us," the world's richest man told the Washington Post and pointed
>to the irony of Indian techies having to go back after doing advanced
>computer courses in the US because of the visa shortage.
>
>"It's kind of ironic to have somebody graduate from Stanford
>Computer Science Department and there's not enough H1B visas, so they
>have to go back to India," he said, adding: "And I have people who
>have been hired, who are just sitting on the border waiting."
>
>Beginning fiscal 2004, the H-1B visas are down to 65,000 from a peak of
>195,000 allowed for the preceding three years. The drop is so
>precipitous that the whole H-1B quota is now exhausted well before the
>start of the fiscal year.
>
>Gates grumbled that he has a hard time understanding the logic of those
>who decry the outsourcing of American jobs, but are still reluctant to
>the entry of high-skilled people who are catalysts for US growth.
>
>Alongside the move to raise the H-1B cap, Gates backs the Bush
>administration's plan to boost the teaching of math and science in US
>high schools as part of the long-term goal to expand the supply of
>qualified Americans for tech jobs.
I think Mr. Gates is right - in the US there a shortage of low paid
techies. Americans with advanced tech knowledge want to make 100k/year
or more, while H1B foreigners are satisfied with 50k/year. We need
more foreign H1B workers to replace hight paid Americans. It is good
for Mr. Gates, it is good for CEOs, it is good for America.
Zalek
http://www.geocities.com/saveusajob...urcing_laws.htm
| |
| Bishop 2006-03-25, 6:58 pm |
|
On 25-Mar-2006, Zalek Bloom <ZalekBloom@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think Mr. Gates is right - in the US there a shortage of low paid
> techies. Americans with advanced tech knowledge want to make 100k/year
> or more, while H1B foreigners are satisfied with 50k/year. We need
> more foreign H1B workers to replace hight paid Americans. It is good
> for Mr. Gates, it is good for CEOs, it is good for America.
Uh huh. Sure.
| |
| Zalek Bloom 2006-03-25, 6:58 pm |
| On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:50:06 -0500, "rkusenet" <rkusenet@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>"rrc" <rrcolby@go.com> wrote in message
>news:1142904947.829607.274770@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>Oracle has a huge presence in India, with many of them doing working
>in their core products like database engine.
>
>http://www.oracle.com/global/in/pressroom/stays.html
>
>http://www.redherring.com/article.aspx?a=15241
>
>Both Oracle and Microsoft are doing the right thing. Hire where
>they will get good engineers. Fire where they will get the likes
>of Terry Lomax, Gill Bentry, RazorFace.
>
Yep - both companies made good financial decisions - fire expensive
Americans and hire cheaper foreigners. 90% of American voters support
this policy - by voting Republicats (Republicans/Democrats). Both
parties support outsourcing.
Zalek
http://www.geocities.com/saveusajob...urcing_laws.htm
| |
| Zalek Bloom 2006-03-25, 6:58 pm |
| On 21 Mar 2006 05:16:09 -0800, "T.Keating" <tkgoogle@ktcnslt.com>
wrote:
>On 20 Mar 2006 16:03:37 -0800, "indiaBPOking" <indiabpoking@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>Crosspost to British newsgroup...snipped.....
>
>
> Bill Gates (the world's richest man in history) personally lobbies
>congress for more cheap foreign labor.. (what's wrong with this
>scenario?)
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. This is a free country and
voters will decide if there is something wrong with replacing
expensive American workers with cheap freigners. And let me guess...
voters will again support two ousourcing supporting companies -
Republicans/Democrats.
Zalek
>
>Even worse... He wants the US tax payer to subsidize his un-ending
>greed!!
>
> Every imported tech worker is one less US tech worker with a decent
>job. On top of that, he will pay them substandard wages, increase
>our societal burdens (Health, Energy, etc), and further depress wages
>industry wide.
>
>
>A few more misstatements...
> Current levels of newly H-1B's is around 125K a year..
>
>65K cap for no US degree H-1B's.
>20K cap for US degreed H-1B's.
>40K est for uncapped categories of H-1B's.
>
>
>I.E. an effective increase to 115,000+20,000+40,000 == 175,000 newly
>imported H-1B's each year. (increasing by 23,000 each year
>thereafter)..
>
>Which will finish OFF most future employment opportunities for US
>workers in the tech industry.
>
> Back in the late 90's (boom years) 115,000 H-1B cap was enough to
>depress contracting by almost 90%. Note: back then, there were NO
>other H-1B categories.
>
> The FY 2001 through 2003 cap increase (to 195K/yr+exempt ) was
>enough to nearly wipe out all contracting & domestic hiring. This
>flood of H-1B's screwed over RCG's and experienced techies alike.
>
>
>It's well known that M$ doesn't hire the best and brightest..
>
> M$ is unwilling to part with the appropriate $$.
>
> M$ has a difficult time retaining the he few highly skilled
>industry hires they have made in the past. (They see the M$ sweatshop
>and flee as fast as possible.)
>
> He wants more H-1B slaves to keep wages down and his keep his
>remaining
>domestic tech workers inline.. (save's on stock options..)
>
> Lastly Billy G. and his company M$ runs like a sweatshop.
>
>
>The irony here is that M$ already has a sweatshop setup in India..
> Last head count was around 3000...
> He could pay those US grads a pittance and keep them in India..
> But, no.. that's not good enough for Billy.
> He wants to eliminate the little earning power US tech workers still
>have..
>
>
>
>"As of June 30, 2005, we employed approximately 61,000 people on a
>full-time basis, 39,000 in the United States and 22,000
>internationally."
>
>"Of the total, 24,000 were in product research and development, 18,000
>in sales and marketing, 12,000 in product support and consulting
>services, 2,000 in manufacturing and distribution, and 5,000 in general
>and administration."
>
> Soo.. Billy G.. is asking for an H-1B increase 3 to 5 times than
>that of his domestic R&D divisions !!! Billy G's greed knows no
>boundary.. A true ass hole in his time..
>
>
>Why?? Billy G's M$ isn't going to hire them... That strategy will just
>add to the pool of over qualified Walmart stockers.
>
>In summary, Bill Gates is willing to sacrifice tech careers for ALL US
>workers, just to satisfy his never ending lust for more money!!
| |
| The Trucker 2006-03-26, 6:57 pm |
| "indiaBPOking" <indiabpoking@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142899417.200932.12230@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1654992,0002.htm
>
> S Rajagopalan
>
> Washington, March 21, 2006
>
> Flying into Washington DC on a rare visit, Microsoft chief Bill Gates
> has added his powerful voice to the demand that US Congress clear the
> decks for a hefty increase in the number of H-1B visas.
And what else would we expect from a rent ser?
> Gates, faced with the shortage of Indian and other foreign techies,
> decided to come down to the US capital and personally lobby for an end
> to visa woes that have affected the operations of Microsoft and other
> US giants.
There are better solutions:
Bill Gates and his entire company can move to India. I will be at the
boat dock to throw flowers as the Microsoft boat leaves carrying all
the empty suits and Indians that now make up the Microsoft company.
Bill Gates can hire American "techies" by paying them a decent wage.
This will also encourage others to s "techie" degrees and actually
"grow the economy" instead of FAKING a growing economy.
> The visit came amid moves to come up with a legislation in the Senate
> to raise the H-1B cap from 65,000 visas a year to 115,000, with a
> built-in provision for 20% increase every year. "The high skills
> immigration issue is by far the No. 1 thing. This is gigantic for
> us," the world's richest man told the Washington Post and pointed
> to the irony of Indian techies having to go back after doing advanced
> computer courses in the US because of the visa shortage.
So move your rent sing ass to India and you won't have a
problem, Gates.
> "It's kind of ironic to have somebody graduate from Stanford
> Computer Science Department and there's not enough H1B visas, so they
> have to go back to India," he said, adding: "And I have people who
> have been hired, who are just sitting on the border waiting."
Why do they need YOU, Gates? What you are really doing is
ripping off the system. The US government enforces your monopolyrights
all over the world and you pay zip in taxes. Move to India and let the
Indian government see to your copyright protections and your
trade name protections. We in America will do quite well with
Linux, thank you. It is that the market for newer attachments is
in America. The attachment makers can just as well make interfaces
for Linux as they do for Microsoft. Gates is a monopolist.
I wonder WHY the Indians don't just start the BIGWINDOWS
computer operating system and applications company? Could it
be that Gates/Microsoft has a monopoly so strong that not even
the Indian government and all those highly educated Indians
can expect to compete?
> Beginning fiscal 2004, the H-1B visas are down to 65,000 from a peak of
> 195,000 allowed for the preceding three years. The drop is so
> precipitous that the whole H-1B quota is now exhausted well before the
> start of the fiscal year.
Which means that job opportunities for American "techies" will be
happening if our suck ass Repugnican Congress can be held in check.
> Gates grumbled that he has a hard time understanding the logic of those
> who decry the outsourcing of American jobs, but are still reluctant to
> the entry of high-skilled people who are catalysts for US growth.
Gates is a liar. He is smart enough to know that US growth does not
happen unless US people get the jobs. He is concerned about himself
and his stockholders making huge profits.
> Alongside the move to raise the H-1B cap, Gates backs the Bush
> administration's plan to boost the teaching of math and science in US
> high schools as part of the long-term goal to expand the supply of
> qualified Americans for tech jobs.
The only thing that will increase the supply of engineers and scientists
is to PAY the American engineers and scientists that are already here.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org
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