Home > Archive > Software Engineering > September 2005 > Re: CV, work-history, 91C, CompSci?, Applet? (was: Software Job Ma...)
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Re: CV, work-history, 91C, CompSci?, Applet? (was: Software Job Ma...)
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| Chris Hills 2005-09-08, 3:56 am |
| In article <REM-2005sep06-001@Yahoo.Com>, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <rem642b@Yahoo.Com> writes
>(Regarding MicroSoft Word and documents of its format:)
>
>I have never programmed in APL, which requires a special character set.
>All the langauges I've programmed in, both assembly langugage and
>higher-level, have used plain ASCII text files as source files. Not one
>of them used MicroSoft Word format files as source or as library or as
>object or as executable or as anything else associated with it. Lisp
>documentation strings are in plain text. JavaDoc is in plain text.
>Neither is in MicroSoft Word format. There is nothing in my profession,
>writing software, that requires or uses MicroSoft Word format in any
>way.
This shows why you have been out of work for a decade and are likely to
be so for the foreseeable future.
There is a LOT more to programing than writing source code in an ascii
editor.
You use Word for CV's and documentation.
BTW I did once come across some one who wrote a program in word as a doc
file. renamed it to *.c and wondered why the compiler did not like it.
>I have never claimed expertise with MicroSoft Word. I am not s ing a
>job using MicroSoft Word, such as word-processing, or
>receptionist/secretary, or advertising copy, etc. Accordingly what you
>said, that MicroSoft Word instead of plain text is a tool of my
>profession, seems to be completely wrong.
Word is the de-facto standard (for the majority of the world) word
processor for documentation, CV's resumes reports, srequiremtns and
specification etc
Doing documentation in plain ascii went out over a decade ago. It
appears you are at least a decade out of date in the tools of your
profession.
As I said the rest of the people on this NG who have responded are all
in work in the SW industry around the world and you all tell you the
same thing.
So don't tell me I am wrong. I am telling you what is.
Why ask for advice and then tell everyone they are all wrong?
>
>
>It's not a good idea to include references in a resume, nor even to say
>"references available on request", so I'm going to ignore your remarks.
Again you ask for advice from those who are actually doing and the
ignore it.
As I have run, in the past a small specialist job agency I can tell you
without references there is no way I would put you forward for anything,
>
>
>So like if somebody "famous", like a movie/TV star or sports star,
>offered cruddy instruction, they'd accept, but a non-famous person
>offering quality instruction, they couldn't care less?
No. People will take instruction form people they feel comfortable with,
famous or not. You do not seem in synch with the norms of this industry.
Your attitudes seem a bit "strange" and as I have said people don't like
"strange".
In any event you are not qualified to instruct. At least I have seen no
evidence of the skills required. Certainly not an understanding of
modern Sw engineering.
Also you don't seem to have the tools required to turn out any support
material. Ie the documentation.
>
>Your premise is invalid,
My preemies is VERY valid. Unlike you I work in the industry and have
been employed and I have employed people so I know from both directions
what sort of skills are required
You don't have them,
> so your conclusion is unproved.
Errrr
I am in work
You have not worked for a decade.
Any other proof required?
> I do in fact
>have basic literacy and numeracy for all of those kinds of tasks,
You have not given any reasonable indication of that here. You
definition an understanding of many items are at odds with the industry
(ie the rest of us here who have commented who are working inthe
industry across the world)
>although I've never been required as part of a job to fit the
>requirements into any standard form, but I did learn UML diagrams in
>one of my recent classes,
That's good.
> and wrote several using a drawing program
>that was available on MS-Windows.
drawing package or a case tool?
> I'm quite capable of writing a first
>draft of technical reports or designs or requirements, providing that I
>know the basic information needed (such as if I'm documenting software
>that I wrote and/or designed, or I'm writing up requirements that I
>conceived or which I brainstormed with somebody such that sufficient
>notes were taken). But when it comes to converting my first draft into
>a polished document (nice formatting, nice layout, nice artistic
>balance, pretty colors in the opinion of the advertising department,
>etc.), I would leave that to somebody who specializes in document
>production.
Sorry that is what a SW engineer is expected to do as a matter of
course. Things have changed a LOT in the last couple of decades.
In the 70's a programer woudl write in ascii and send it to some one
else (a secretary? ) to polish in a document processor.
Not any more for about 10 years the Programmer is expected to turn out
well formatted and laid out documents. word is the most common tool
used. As I said if you can't do that they you don't have the BASIC
skills required.
>I'll stick to software and preliminary technical
>documentation.
Preliminary documentation is in word format. You idea are a decade out
of date in an industry that re-invents it self every 5 years.
If you stick to your current (very out moded views) you will never get
employment.
>
>I don't have any peers.
I agree. Not here you don't have any peers. This is a SW engineering NG.
A Software Engineer you are not.
>
>I'm not privy to the mental processes within the brains of each person
>who decided not to hire me, so I don't have the information necessary
>to answer your question.
This is obtuse and wilful stupidity on you part.
You know the reasons they gave and you should have been able to pick up
a lot from the interviews.
You seem to have a lot of problems, as this thread and you rown comments
show, with interacting with people that is probably your main problem.
>
>I have several megabytes of such information. Please arrange to drop by
>some time and browse it.
Idiot.
>
>Commercial software (what I did before was in-house custom software).
Change of career from SW development. You seem quite unsuited to sw
development in the current industry.
>
>Thanks for approving some of my skills.
I am in a position to do so.
> Do you know of any employment
>available which can use such skills but which does not require me to
>have specific experience I don't have?
NO. Thos skills are only part of those required for programming. There
are other, basic, skils you don't appear to have.
I know of quite a few jobs going at the moment. Judging by your comments
and attitudes here you are not suitable sw work in any company I know.
>
>I do not have access to any text format other than ASCII (plain or
>HTML), and I don't have money to purchase such facilities, so your
>attempt to harass me in this regard is a waste of your typing effort.
Then use a public library, ask a friend, family etc. Given the number of
PC's around you MUST know some one (several people) with a PC and a word
processor. If you don't this would indicate that you are probably
lacking in social skills required in the workplace.
>I've written requirements spec and design notes, in ASCII.
So did we all 10-15 years ago.
>But most of
>the work I've done was research or R&D where I didn't know from the
>outset what techniques would be most effective and worth putting into
>production, so in those cases there was no requirements spec at the
>start. Would you like to see design notes for one of my projects, in
>plain ASCII? If so, which one?
No. I don't have time if you are not going to fit them into the formats
I use. YOUR loss not mine.
If you want people look at you information to give you work YOU have to
fit in to their methods and formats.
If you insist of doing it your way you will not get work.
>
>I don't currently have the resources to do that. Will you provide me
>with a free (i.e. your expense)
I see you are not really interested in getting work. If you work you
would find these tools.
Why should I make any effort if you will not. There are plenty of others
who will. Therefore you go to the bottom of the pile marked "awkward"
See any library, many help centres. Ask you local religious leader
(vicar, priest, imam etc) I am sure they will let you use their system
and even help with a modern CV.
> copy of whatever software, for my
>Macintosh Performa 600 running System 7.5.5, is needed to produce the
>something you want me to send you? (Note: I have less than 17 megabytes
>of available disk space for whatever software you send me plus the
>actual work you want me to produce for you.)
See above. In a VERY busy world with LOTS of qualified and experienced
people who do work in the way industry requires why should I make a lot
of effort to see what you can do when you will make no effort to show
me?
>
>
>MicroSoft Word is a proprietary product of MicroSoft Corporation. It is
>not an industry standard unless you believe MicroSoft is the only
>company in the world.
It is also used by ALL the open-source (ie FREE) office platforms on
x86PC, MAC and Linux.
You don't have to use WORD. if you are going to print it you could use
Tex or many others.
>They try to dominate everybody else, they even
>commit crimes to cheat other companies out of their work, and by such
>means they destroy other companies, running them out of business.
Whilst that may well be very true it is irrelevant to this discussion of
you producing a CV in a form at people want to get you work.
>
>It's obvious to me that he had an belief that people who programmed in
>Lisp at Stanford must be some kind of Ph.D. student at Stanford,
>interested only in A.I., who would refuse to do any sort of "boring"
>work such as he offered me. He was completely mistaken. I was helpless
>to change his mind. Do you believe that you, in my place, could have
>changed his mind, deprogrammed him from his stupid belief?
No idea. But then I am a different person. However this does put a
question mark (as do many other aspects of this thread) over your social
skills.How well you are going to interact with the rest of the
team/company,. Nothing so far has given anyone any confidence in you
>Or was there
>nothing I could have done different from what I already did?
Well you have refused all the advice that has been given so far..
>
>My attitude is that I have 22+ years experience programming computers,
>that I still can program computers, that I'm available to perform paid
>work programming computers, and I wish somebody would offer me a job,
>either programming, or something else that I can do.
>What part of that attitude needs changing?
!!!!!! Read the rest of the posts in this email Most of the important
points you have dismissed, said are irrelevant or are wrong. Most you
have rambled on about with obtuse and irrelevant arguments.
>By the way, since this discussion is very specific to *my* effort to
>find employment, not of general interest in the entire topic of
>computer programming or software engineering, why don't you join my
>Yahoo! Group and discuss my personal employment search there?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/helpr...findemployment/
No time to waste on it.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
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| Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t 2005-09-08, 6:58 pm |
| X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com
Lines: 101
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.programming:214795 comp.software-eng:88561
> From: Chris Hills <c...@phaedsys.org>
> There is a LOT more to programing than writing source code in an
> ascii editor. You use Word for CV's and documentation.
Only if you're programming on a MicroSoft Windows system. If you're
programming on Unix/Linux it might be preferable to write all
documentation in HTML, especially if you're programming in Java using
JavaDoc. As for CVs, we've already been through that discussion. CVs
are, in the USA, used only for applying for tenured faculty positions,
not for commercial software jobs. And in any case, writing CVs is very
unlikely to be a work task of somebody hired to write software, even in
Europe.
But why are you talking about MicroSoft Word here in comp.programming
and comp.software-eng? Do you consider such topics appropriate for
these newsgroups?
> Doing documentation in plain ascii went out over a decade ago.
Please explain that remark to Sun MicroSystems:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/
Do you see any MicroSoft Word there??
> In any event you are not qualified to instruct.
And yet I've been doing it, successfully.
> Also you don't seem to have the tools required to turn out any
> support material. Ie the documentation.
I have both McSink and GNU Emacs, either of which is quite sufficient
for directly editing HTML source files, or for editing Java source
files which contain JavaDoc comments which then get compiled into
JavaDoc WebPages. How exactly, in your opinion, is a single MS-Word
document better than WebPages with cross-links and a search engine?
> drawing package or a case tool?
This is really getting off-topic for these newsgroups, don't you think?
If you want to ask me specific questions such as that, why don't you
join my Yahoo! Group and ask there?
> This is obtuse and wilful stupidity on you part. You know the reasons
> they gave and you should have been able to pick up a lot from the
> interviews.
No, I don't know the reasons, although I can guess, but what good are
guesses? The person at RSA Data Security who interviewed me seemed
impressed at the fact I had already done work in that area (after
reading the article in Martin Gardner's column), and I was surprised
when I didn't get hired. No explanation was ever given to me. I didn't
get any clue from the interviewer that there was any reason not to hire
me.
> Idiot.
Well if you're not willing to look at the megabytes of data that answer
the question you asked, there's no way I can help you get an answer.
One of the programs I wrote on my Macintosh Plus was a utility to scan
all my megabytes of job contacts and extract just the key information
at the top of each section, and concatenate them all into one master
table-of-contents file. That file is only 121k bytes. Perhaps you'd be
willing to browse at that file to see all the companies and agencies I
contacted, and pick a few that arouse your curiosity, and then for each
such, jump directly to the particular file (among the megabytes) that
has the complete record of my contacts with that one company or agency,
and look just at that instead of the whole collection? But I'd guess
from your attitude you aren't willing to look at *any* of the
information about my contacts with companies and agencies in search for
employment, because you just like to ask questions to waste my time.
> Then use a public library
The public library doesn't provide such facilties except for a charge I
can't afford.
Most of the rest of your comments are so grossly off-topic that I'm not
even going to cite them here. Take up your questions in another forum.
> I see you are not really interested in getting work. If you work you
> would find these tools.
The tools cost money which I don't have and won't have until after I
have a job. You have the logic backwards:
- Correct: Get job, to get money, to buy stuff.
- Your idea: Fabricate equipment by magic out of thin air, then get job.
I'm in search of a paying job. If you aren't going to help me find
such, then butt out of these discussions.
I have 22+ years experience writing computer software. If this horrible
recession ever ends, maybe somebody can help me find a paying job.
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