RE: PHP on .NET DLR

K T:

I ran a company for 12 years that sold components and tools to
Microsoft-centric software developers so I know a little about how
Microsoft's development division operates.  I highly doubt they will care
about a petition.  OTOH, if someone implements PHP on the DLR and does a
good job, they will at least recognize the effort if not embrace it and most
likely offer to hire everyone on the core team that did the work.

In summary: spare the petition, write code instead.

JMTCW anyway.

--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us

P.S. Your comment "I don't think the beauty of the language was the key,
since MS is the purveyor of VB, one of the ugliest languages around" falsely
presumes several things: 1.) that Microsoft has a single collective thought
process and 2.) that people's perspectives never evolve.  BTW, as languages
go VB is far less ugly than PHP in my opinion, but then I'm sure saying that
on this list won't make me a lot of friends. I am using PHP today because of
its momentum and marketshare (1: WordPress, Drupal, vBulletin, Mediawiki,
et. al. 2:Deployed on ALMOST EVERY webhost in the world today!) not because
of its language elegance.  But hey, regarding language elegance, I calls
them like I sees them. :)

I believe they hired the Phalanger guys:
http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.a...ame=3DPhalanger

Andi=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Schinkel [mailto:mikeschinkel@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:48 PM
> To: 'K T Ligesh'; php-evangelism@lists.php.net
> Subject: RE: PHP on .NET DLR
>=20
> K T:
>=20
> I ran a company for 12 years that sold components and tools=20
> to Microsoft-centric software developers so I know a little=20
> about how Microsoft's development division operates.  I=20
> highly doubt they will care about a petition.  OTOH, if=20
> someone implements PHP on the DLR and does a good job, they=20
> will at least recognize the effort if not embrace it and most=20
> likely offer to hire everyone on the core team that did the work. =20
>=20
> In summary: spare the petition, write code instead.
>=20
> JMTCW anyway.
>=20
> --
> -Mike Schinkel
> http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> http://www.welldesignedurls.org
> http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
>=20
> P.S. Your comment "I don't think the beauty of the language=20
> was the key, since MS is the purveyor of VB, one of the=20
> ugliest languages around" falsely presumes several things:=20
> 1.) that Microsoft has a single collective thought process=20
> and 2.) that people's perspectives never evolve.  BTW, as=20
> languages go VB is far less ugly than PHP in my opinion, but=20
> then I'm sure saying that on this list won't make me a lot of=20
> friends. I am using PHP today because of its momentum and=20
> marketshare (1: WordPress, Drupal, vBulletin, Mediawiki, et.=20
> al. 2:Deployed on ALMOST EVERY webhost in the world today!)=20
> not because of its language elegance.  But hey, regarding=20
> language elegance, I calls them like I sees them. :)
>=20

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 12:47:49AM -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> K T:
>
> I ran a company for 12 years that sold components and tools to
> Microsoft-centric software developers so I know a little about how
> Microsoft's development division operates.  I highly doubt they will care
> about a petition.  OTOH, if someone implements PHP on the DLR and does a
> good job, they will at least recognize the effort if not embrace it and mo
st
> likely offer to hire everyone on the core team that did the work.
>
> In summary: spare the petition, write code instead.
>
> JMTCW anyway.
>

I have already pointed out that PHP had the first full implementation of .NE
T, even ahead of ironPython, but MS seems to have hired the phalanager devs 
and dumped the project. Tomas is currently working on IronRuby, unfortunatel
y. The last thing MS cares
about is code. The decisions are always managerial, and what they care is wh
at the customers want, and I think there is a general negative attitude in t
his community vis-a-vis PHP on .NET.

Managers care about petition; they can't read code.

Thanks.

quote:

> P.S. Your comment "I don't think the beauty of the language was the key,
> since MS is the purveyor of VB, one of the ugliest languages around" false
ly
> presumes several things: 1.) that Microsoft has a single collective though
t
> process and 2.) that people's perspectives never evolve.  BTW, as language
s
> go VB is far less ugly than PHP in my opinion, but then I'm sure saying th
at
> on this list won't make me a lot of friends. I am using PHP today because 
of
> its momentum and marketshare (1: WordPress, Drupal, vBulletin, Mediawiki,
> et. al. 2:Deployed on ALMOST EVERY webhost in the world today!) not becaus
e
> of its language elegance.  But hey, regarding language elegance, I calls
> them like I sees them. :)


I come from a pure C background. Don't write procedural code at all. Write p
ure OO code. Then what you have a really beautiful C like language written i
n OO.  Php should have been called C script, as in, it is pure C with script
ing capabilities. Anyone f
or a namechange? :-) The reason for PHP's success is also this. Everyone has
 come into touch C some way or the other. It is simply unavoidable, and in P
HP what we have is a C scripting language.

Thanks.

K T Ligesh wrote:
>  I come from a pure C background. Don't write procedural code
> at all. Write pure OO code. Then what you have a really
> beautiful C like language written in OO.  Php should have
> been called C script, as in, it is pure C with scripting
> capabilities. Anyone for a namechange? :-) The reason for
> PHP's success is also this. Everyone has come into touch C
> some way or the other. It is simply unavoidable, and in PHP
> what we have is a C scripting language.

So THAT's why I've found the PHP language distasteful; it's C heritage.  I
should have known!  Thanks for pointing it out. '-)

--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us

> The last thing MS cares about is code. The
> decisions are always managerial, and what they care is what
> the customers want, and I think there is a general negative
> attitude in this community vis-a-vis PHP on .NET.
>
>  Managers care about petition; they can't read code.

It that's what you think, feel free to ignore my input. The end result of
getting PHP officially supported within Silverlight is important to you but
not to me, so you will be the one to loose if your outsider's view of
Microsoft is wrong. Good luck. :)

--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 11:18:46AM -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> It that's what you think, feel free to ignore my input. The end result of
> getting PHP officially supported within Silverlight is important to you bu
t
> not to me, so you will be the one to loose if your outsider's view of
> Microsoft is wrong. Good luck. :)
>

The code is already there. It seems MS hired the devs specifically so that t
hey would stop working on it. If they hadn't hired Tomas, we would have a co
mplete PHP on DLR by now. So there is little I can do. We need to get MS ado
pt the already existing ph
alanger code; or just let the original developer work on the project. So wri
ting code does not even enter in as the problem.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 09:44:56AM -0700, Slava Yanson wrote:
> ????? ?????, ????????.
> ??????, ????????????!
>

I don't understand. Can you clarify please?

Normally, when a company hires a developer working on a project, the sane fo
llowup is to have him working on the same thing afterwards. Here what we hav
e is MS hiring Tomas and Lada, but then moving them into ironRuby. So there 
is a some serious stuff go
ing on. I am sure Tomas and Lada would prefer to work on PHP itself, since t
hey have done a really good job with Phalanger, so it is a pure managerial d
ecision to not let them work on it.

Thanks.


On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 09:11:48PM +0530, K T Ligesh wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 11:18:46AM -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote: 
>
>  The code is already there. It seems MS hired the devs specifically so that they w
ould stop working on it. If they hadn't hired Tomas, we would have a complete PHP on
 DLR by now. So there is little I can do. We need to get MS adopt the already existi
ng
phalanger code; or just let the original developer work on the project. So writing code doe
s not even enter in as the problem.
>
>
>
>

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 11:18:46AM -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> K T Ligesh wrote: 
>
> So THAT's why I've found the PHP language distasteful; it's C heritage.  I
> should have known!  Thanks for pointing it out. '-)
>

I think MS, even though they do have a firm commitment to VB, is primarily a
 C company, with C++/C#, for which I am thankful. Considering how they treat
ed their VB6 devs by changing to VB.NET (which has no relation to VB btw), i
t would seem the C folks a
re the ones who are calling the shots.  so PHP's C heritage would suit them 
fine. I might rather move to a dynamic C# rather than Ruby. I am incapable o
f coding in a language that's not delimited using braces. I have this parser
 embedded in my brain that
can execute C style language automatically once it is properly syntax highli
ghted in Vim.

C is a horrible language, but somehow it has some kind of charm and never se
em to go away. So I think being comfortable with C and C like languages is t
he safest bet you can make in the Computer Industry. Of top 10, 4--Java/C++/
C#/PHP--languages are C ba
sed. So there must be something right about the braces.