Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html

On Thu, 1 May 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> I met on IRC[1], or for saying "There's a girl on #perl", instead of "ther
e's
> a programmer on #perl" or whatever.

This sort of thing is classic sexism. You're making a big deal out of
someone's sex.

Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited and
said "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel comfortable? Would
you want to come back? Would it make you feel included in the group?

Part of creating a welcoming environment for any minority group is to not
make a big XXXXing deal out them being a minority! Engage them as
individuals, not as representatives of some group you're not part of.


-dave

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On Thu, 1 May 2008, Andy Lester wrote:
 
>
> This analogy is beautiful.  It also points my annoyance with the entire
> topic.  We never talk about "Jews in Perl" or "Jews in open source".
>
> "How can we make Perl more inviting to Jews?"

This would be a reasonable question if for some reason there was a
noticeable disparity between Jews in Perl vs Jews in programming or Jews
in open source. This disparity does exist with women and open source, I
think.

The answer to the question is simple, at a certain level. Simply put, we
need to make sure that the Perl community is a comfortable place for women
(and Jews and everyone else).

Part of that means not making a big deal of their presence. However,
overall, I think it's less about doing specific things to cater to women,
and doing more to simply be less repellent (to everyone). That's asking a
lot of #perl, of course.

Outside of #perl, I think the Perl community as a whole does a decent job
of being less repellent, and has been doing a good job for the past few
years. There are some exceptions, but overall I think things have improved
in the time I've been involved in Perl (9 years or so).


-dave

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On Thu, 1 May 2008, Elaine Ashton wrote:

> LOL. I was going to say that it must have been Charlton Heston, but then
> remembered the real quote which is:
>
> "Freedom cannot be given... It can only be taken away."

There seem to be a number of versions of this quote on the net. Some match
the meaning above, but most others are more like "Freedom cannot be given,
it must be taken".

Apparently, this is the tagline for the film Amistad
(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118607/). According to IMDB, that tagline
is "Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some
moments when it must be taken."

You all lose points. Shlomi loses for quoting the tagline to a Spielberg
film as if it were deep philosophy. Elaine loses for managing to find the
negative version, when most net sources seem to go with the positive.


-dave

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On Thu, 1 May 2008, Elaine Ashton wrote:

> Negative version? I just remembered the quote from David Allan Coe. Hey, I
'm
> a big fan of the guy who wrote the song "Take this job and shove it." What
,
> don't I get points for thinking the original could have easily been from M
r.
> Pry it from my cold dead hands Heston? :D

Further research does find the Coe version, indeed.

As far as crediting Heston, I think the original version does have some
merit. It wasn't like the civil rights movement simple asked to be treated
equally. They demanded it.

Shlomi's use was way off, I will agree.

Of course, this is all getting _way way way_ off-topic, and clearly my
points assignment should be taken rather tongue-in-ch.


-dave

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