"NASA Uses Python"

Hi all!

If you go to http://www.python.org/ you'll see at the top-right corner a
picture of an astronaut with the title "NASA uses Python...". Now, to the
layman or beginner it might sound more impressive, but let's get our facts
straight.

Yes, NASA uses Python. However, that doesn't surprise me because NASA, being
 a
large, old, hetrogenous, government organisation, with a huge budget, and
many IT needs uses a lot of technologies both new and old. I'm pretty sure
they also use Perl (at least that's what Damian Conway implied in an
interview with him about Parse::RecDescent). They use Windows, Linux, VMS an
d
many other UNIX flavours and OSes. (There was a Linux-running device on the
Columbia).

<Pseudonym> NASA still uses Fortran on their VAXen.
<Pseudonym> Hell, they still use VAXen.

NASA wrote a great deal of their satellite software in Forth. And this JoS
item links to an article about the fact that they are still using a 1970's
vintage launch-control computer system:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/news/20020918.html

So while the fact that NASA uses Python may sound impressive to
relatively-clueless people, it is by no means truly indicative of how really
good and unique Python is.[1] That's why I'd rather not say something
like "NASA Uses Perl" on http://perl-begin.org/ . It may be true, but saying
this would be misleading due to the nature of NASA.

However, I'd still like to see this removed from the Python homepage, becaus
e
it's a statement that is misleading to the uninitiated and lacks integrity. 
I
thought about consulting you people on my own turf about the best course of
action from here.

I could post a rant about it on one of my blogs and hope that reddit, digg,
etc. catch it and a flamewar (probably completely tangential to the issue at
hand) ensues. Or I could try contacting the Python advocacy list (is there
any) or the python.org webmasters. The latter seems a more civil course of
action to me, but I may be met with apathy or antagonism.

What do you suggest?

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

[1] - I'm not saying that the technologies that NASA use are necessarily cra
p,
just that they use a lot of diverse technologies.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif@iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
> If you go to http://www.python.org/ you'll see at the top-right corner
> a picture of an astronaut with the title "NASA uses Python...". Now,
> to the layman or beginner it might sound more impressive, but let's
> get our facts straight.

If you look closely you can see that they are just pointing to one of the
many Python success stories on their site:

http://www.python.org/about/success/

> However, I'd still like to see this removed from the Python homepage,
> because it's a statement that is misleading to the uninitiated and
> lacks integrity. I thought about consulting you people on my own turf
> about the best course of action from here.

I completely disagree with you there. I think this is legitimate
information on their page, even backed up with a full write-up of the
application. Please leave them alone!

If you want to advocate Perl, then you should try to get more Perl
success stories published, not try to suppress other languages
successes. Here is a similar list of stories for Perl:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/ore...ss_stories.html

But look at how many stories were published each year:

1999 -  4
2000 - 11
2001 -  4
2002 -  9
2003 -  4
2004 -  2
2005 - none
2006 - none
2007 - none
2008 -  ?

This is the real problem, not that Python can point to a NASA project
that uses Python.

Cheers,
-Jan

PS: Yes, I don't know the years the individual Python stories were
published, so they may actually be seeing the same trend. But that
is besides the point I was trying to make.

Hi all!

First of all let me apologise if you think my letter was phrased in a too
negatively or with a negative criticism. Read below.

On Saturday 05 April 2008, Jan Dubois wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote: 
>
> If you look closely you can see that they are just pointing to one of the
> many Python success stories on their site:
>
>   http://www.python.org/about/success/
>

Great, the picture has a link. I couldn't tell it had one nor could I think 
of
it. Most people won't follow the link. They'll just think "Wow! NASA uses
Python! Python must be the cat whiskers". Or if they know better (like me)
they'll think "Yes, they're using Python. So what? They're using a lot of
things too.".

I know too much about UI design and web usability (and a bit about marketing
)
to know the layout of this particular element is misleading.

Regarding success stories - yes, it's good that the Python site has them. An
d
yes, it's bad that the prominent Perl sites do not have more testimonials.
I've tried to remedy the situation by including a "Testimonials" page at:

http://perl-begin.org/

But it's my site, and not with too high a page rank, and I don't have contro
l
or access to the other Perl sites. I'm not trying to complain that I should
have (again...), but I think the front page of the site should be designed
with a marketing persepctive in mind. See:

http://www.sparkthis.com/2006/02/slides_the_hack.html
 
>
> I completely disagree with you there. I think this is legitimate
> information on their page, even backed up with a full write-up of the
> application. Please leave them alone!

Fine, would you be happy if I added a "NASA uses Perl" box to
http://perl-begin.org/ with the same or a similar picture? I'd rather not
have this escalate into an arms' race. I pointed out why it was misleading,
and you did not address any of my main points or evidence to the contrary.

Perhaps I should buy http://www.fortran.org/ and say "NASA Uses Fortran" wit
h
a picture of an Astronaut there, so the uneducated will think that Fortran i
s
used by leet hackers.[1]

[1] - Thinking about it, it would make a great parody site, but not of
http://www.python.org/ in particular.

Note that I don't mind having a NASA success story as a success story for
Python. That's perfectly OK. I'll also be happy to publish NASA successs
stories of Perl on http://perl-begin.org/ . But I'm not going to make it
stand out like http://www.python.org/ does because it is not unique to Perl
(or Python) and because I may eventually make a fool of myself. It's
misleading, and in a bad way.

>
> If you want to advocate Perl, then you should try to get more Perl
> success stories published, not try to suppress other languages
> successes.

See above.

> Here is a similar list of stories for Perl:
>
>   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/ore...ss_stories.html
>
> But look at how many stories were published each year:
>
>   1999 -  4
>   2000 - 11
>   2001 -  4
>   2002 -  9
>   2003 -  4
>   2004 -  2
>   2005 - none
>   2006 - none
>   2007 - none
>   2008 -  ?
>
> This is the real problem, not that Python can point to a NASA project
> that uses Python.
>

I agree it's a problem. I don't think we ran out of Perl success stories, I
just think that the one responsible for them has become too busy or
distracted. I volunteer to renew the effort or at least serve as a mailbox
for new success stories. (Possibly under a different location). I believe I
tried emailing the list requesting such success stories/testimonials, but I
received no reply. I also tried asking on IRC, but so far did not get a repl
y
either.

I admit I haven't tried too hard so far, having been distracted with other
stuff. I could try use.perl.org/perl-buzz/perl.com/perlmonks.org or differen
t
high profile Perl sites.

I should note that I'm not such a good copy-editor, and may miss some
spelling/grammatical/syntactical/phrasing/etc. errors. But I can still
concentrate the effort.

That put aside, while it is important that we get and organise new
testimonials for Perl, I still think the "NASA Uses Python" point I made
smells bad, and that the Python people should remedy it. So this thread
should go into two directions:

1. How can we better solicit more Perl success stories?

1.a) If you have a success story or a different testimonial - send it to me.

2. What should we do, if we should do anything about the "NASA Uses Python"
box in http://www.python.org/ ?

> Cheers,
> -Jan
>
> PS: Yes, I don't know the years the individual Python stories were
> published, so they may actually be seeing the same trend. But that
> is besides the point I was trying to make.

True.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif@iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V.

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 03:52:31PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> If you go to http://www.python.org/ you'll see at the top-right corner a
> picture of an astronaut with the title "NASA uses Python...".

Cool!

> However, I'd still like to see this removed from the Python homepage, beca
use
> it's a statement that is misleading to the uninitiated and lacks integrity.[/color
]

On the interweb?  Surely you jest!

> I could post a rant about it on one of my blogs and hope that reddit, digg
,
> etc. catch it and a flamewar (probably completely tangential to the issue 
at
> hand) ensues. Or I could try contacting the Python advocacy list (is there
> any) or the python.org webmasters. The latter seems a more civil course of
> action to me, but I may be met with apathy or antagonism.
>
> What do you suggest?

Personally I wouldn't bother.  Do we really care?

If we're talking about advocacy, let's advocate.  I suspect that a good
thesaurus would list protest and criticise as antonyms of advocate.

I also suspect that if I couldn't program in Perl then I'd mouch rather
program in Python than the large majority of languages which are common
in job ads at the moment.

Python is not the enemy, and even if it was, this isn't an American
election.

--
Paul Johnson - paul@pjcj.net
http://www.pjcj.net

In article <200804051552.32009.shlomif@iglu.org.il>, Shlomi Fish
<shlomif@iglu.org.il> wrote:


> If you go to http://www.python.org/ you'll see at the top-right corner a
> picture of an astronaut with the title "NASA uses Python...". Now, to the
> layman or beginner it might sound more impressive, but let's get our facts
> straight.

There's nothing deceptive there. You're saying that the Python people
are lying, and the onyl reason you're saying it is because you think
Perl should win and Python should lose.

> What do you suggest?

I suggest you stop worrying about what other people are doing and just
do good work yourself. Tell good stories about Perl and leave it at
that.

Nathans old talk comes to mind:

http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/yapc/2000-advocacy/

In particular:
http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/ya...acy/slide9.html

Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Regarding success stories - yes, it's good that the Python site has them. 
And
> yes, it's bad that the prominent Perl sites do not have more testimonials.
> I've tried to remedy the situation by including a "Testimonials" page at:
>
> http://perl-begin.org/

It might be a good idea to get this on the Perl 5 wiki for starters
(http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi).  I don't think there's a
testimonial's page yet, but I'd love a "Perl Stories" (rather than Perl Succ
ess
Stories) area in the wiki.

> 1. How can we better solicit more Perl success stories?

Stop asking for "success" stories.  People react differently to this phrase,
 of
course, but for most people, a "success" story sounds really hard.  Just get
ting
the job done doesn't really sound like an interesting success.

Ask people for Perl stories, and leave the "success" word completely out of 
it.
Start with "What does your organisation use Perl for?" there are much more
interesting answers to this question than you'd expect.  For example Animal
Logic ( http://www.animallogic.com/ ) in Australia who did parts of the Moul
in
Rouge, Fellowship of the Ring and Matrix I or II; uses Perl for sequencing a
nd
timing.  Qantas uses Perl for generating and processing boarding passes, Mol
d
Flow ( http://www.moldflow.com ) who have created software for optimising th
e
creation of plastic molds uses Perl to test that software.  Unfortunately I
speak with no real authority on these, because it's 2nd hand information, bu
t
these interesting stories are out there, we just need to rephrase the questi
on.

> 1.a) If you have a success story or a different testimonial - send it to me.[/colo
r]

I'd rather "add it to the wiki".  Perhaps other businesses wouldn't prefer t
his,
but I'd like the chance to go back and copy-edit without having to pester th
e
site manager all the time.

> 2. What should we do, if we should do anything about the "NASA Uses Python
"
> box in http://www.python.org/ ?

Cheer them on!  I think it's fantastic that the Python website is promoting
itself and Python.

All the best,

Jacinta

--
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
(_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
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On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 05:38:58PM +0200, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> Python is not the enemy, and even if it was, this isn't an American
> election.
>

Actually, they are so much NOT the enemy, that the French Perl Mongers
are trying to set up an OSDC.fr event with the French Python and Ruby
communities.

Alas, we're not making much progress, because we have a conference in
May, and the Python guys have one in June. First things first! ;-)

--
Philippe Bruhat (BooK)

A wish is only as good as the wisher and what he can achieve.
(Moral from Groo The Wanderer #35 (Epic))

Hi!

On Monday 07 April 2008, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 05:38:58PM +0200, Paul Johnson wrote: 
>
> Actually, they are so much NOT the enemy, that the French Perl Mongers
> are trying to set up an OSDC.fr event with the French Python and Ruby
> communities.

Just to clear up the subject, I don't think that Python is the enemy either.
We already had one Israeli OSDC conference after three YAPCs:

http://www.osdc.org.il/

It was successful and very fun. In 2007 we didn't have another one
unfortunately, and instead opted for a lower-profile, Perl-specific, one-day
and one-track Israeli Perl Workshop.

I should note that I was also the one who jump-started the Israeli Python
meetings, albeit I passed the baton of chief Python organiser to someone
else, who is actually a Pythoneer.

I'm not using Python much, so I'm not fluent in it, and so far don't like
writing in it too much, but it's a good language and technology.

I still think that the "NASA Using Python" thing as presented is misleading.
However, this thread gave me a really wicked idea for a parody site (not jus
t
of http://www.python.org/ of course), which I'm planning to take forward.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif@iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V.

On Apr 7, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> I still think that the "NASA Using Python" thing as presented is
> misleading.
> However, this thread gave me a really wicked idea for a parody site
> (not just
> of http://www.python.org/ of course), which I'm planning to take
> forward.


Please, no.  Let's not look petulant.

--
Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance