Newbie FAQ #2: Where's the GUI?

I know this is a FAQ, but I still don't have any answers, at least
answers that I like.

But let me ask it in the most vulgar way possible, with blunt
observations:

Where's the GUI?

* McCLIM is a wart. If someone honestly thinks I should pursue this,
I'm all ears. Otherwise, it is slow, incompatible with today's GUI
standards, and too big for its own good. I mean, it takes five minutes
to start up the demodemo.

* A lisp-qt thingy would be ideal for me, since I love Qt. If someone
has some ideas, then I am open. I looked at the CFFI-Qt attempt over
at Sourceforge (lcq I think it is called) and it seg faults on me. I
don't know how to approach seg faults in lisp. If someone has this
working, a tutorial would be very nice.

* I have a bias against Gtk. I think it stinks. But I am open if
someone says that this is the best way to go, I'll give Gtk another
chance.

* I took a passing look at Cello, but it seems to be almost 2 years
since anyone has done anything on it. I'll give it another chance if
someone says it's worth the time. Cello seems to be the right way to
go based on its mission statement. After all, you aren't confined to C
(Gtk) or C++ (Qt) when you code in lisp, so you don't have to limit
yourself to their conventions. A "Getting Started" guide for a newbie
like me that is still experiencing the thrill of discovering things
like multiple return values would be nice.

I am totally opposed to closed source or restrictive licenses. I have
just had too many good experiences dealing with the licensing issues
of GPL/BSD/MIT/Perl/etc... licensed code, at both work and play, to
give any other type of license a fair shake. If I can't legally look
inside, modify, and share it with people openly, I don't want to touch
it.

Finally, I think there are far too few evangelists in the lisp world.
(There are plenty of lisp evangelists outside of the lisp world,
though.)  If you do something a certain way, don't be ashamed of
standing up and telling people that your way is the right way. When I
am learning the ropes, it is so much easier to simply rely on someone
else's experience, even if ultimately I will discover it is flawed. If
you really like your way of doing GUIs in lisp, by all means, be proud
and let me know.

På Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:23:56 +0200, skrev Jonathan Gardner
<jgardner@jonathangardner.net>:

> I know this is a FAQ, but I still don't have any answers, at least
> answers that I like.
>
> But let me ask it in the most vulgar way possible, with blunt
> observations:
>
> Where's the GUI?

As you have noted there are many options.

>
> * McCLIM is a wart. If someone honestly thinks I should pursue this,
> I'm all ears. Otherwise, it is slow, incompatible with today's GUI
> standards, and too big for its own good. I mean, it takes five minutes
> to start up the demodemo.
>
> * A lisp-qt thingy would be ideal for me, since I love Qt. If someone
> has some ideas, then I am open. I looked at the CFFI-Qt attempt over
> at Sourceforge (lcq I think it is called) and it seg faults on me. I
> don't know how to approach seg faults in lisp. If someone has this
> working, a tutorial would be very nice.
>

Qt is implemented in C++. This makes talking to Lisp very difficult.
The problem with C++ is that the linking convention is vendor dependent.
No-one has yet made a satisfactory C++ interface for Lisp and even if they
did the differences in the implementation of the class system makes this
of dubious value.
A strictly C based interface like GTK is a better match for Lisp.
How about cells-gtk?

I prefer CAPI which is portable between Windows, Macintosh and Unix/Linux,
but it is proprietary so you wouldn't like that. I have not yet had
serious problem extending it since I can always access the underlying
win32 when I need to.

--------------
John Thingstad

Jonathan Gardner wrote:
> I know this is a FAQ, but I still don't have any answers, at least
> answers that I like.

That's because you missed FAQ #1 ("Where are the damn libraries?") and
the answer ("The Open Source Fairy has left the building. Do them your
own damn self.")

>
> But let me ask it in the most vulgar way possible, with blunt
> observations:

That works so well in life I found out the hard way.

>
> Where's the GUI?
>
> * McCLIM is a wart. If someone honestly thinks I should pursue this,
> I'm all ears. Otherwise, it is slow, incompatible with today's GUI
> standards, and too big for its own good. I mean, it takes five minutes
> to start up the demodemo.

Stop sucking up to me.

>
> * A lisp-qt thingy would be ideal for me, since I love Qt. If someone
> has some ideas, then I am open. I looked at the CFFI-Qt attempt over
> at Sourceforge (lcq I think it is called) and it seg faults on me. I
> don't know how to approach seg faults in lisp. If someone has this
> working, a tutorial would be very nice.

Meanwhile you'll be playing Worlds of Warcraft, I presume.

>
> * I have a bias against Gtk. I think it stinks. But I am open if
> someone says that this is the best way to go, I'll give Gtk another
> chance.
>
> * I took a passing look at Cello, but it seems to be almost 2 years
> since anyone has done anything on it.

Two years?! Damn, I knew I have been playing too much Freecell. I guess
finishing hands in thirty seconds on average might have been another clue.


> I'll give it another chance if
> someone says it's worth the time. Cello seems to be the right way to
> go based on its mission statement. After all, you aren't confined to C
> (Gtk) or C++ (Qt) when you code in lisp, so you don't have to limit
> yourself to their conventions.

Yes, it is rather indecently fun having the whole framework in reach,
and being the developer so you can break it any time you like. The Cells
don't hurt, either. And when you have Cells the GUIs don't want to be
static so the fixed widget mentality of standard GUI frameworks looks
like the stone age.

> A "Getting Started" guide for a newbie
> like me that is still experiencing the thrill of discovering things
> like multiple return values would be nice.

I am not sure you can have it both ways. If you want to play dumb use a
framework like LTk, if you want to be a player roll up your sleeves and
stop asking to be spoon fed.

>
> I am totally opposed to closed source or restrictive licenses.

I was wondering when I would get to thank RMS again for doing so much to
vitate the software industry.

> I have
> just had too many good experiences dealing with the licensing issues
> of GPL/BSD/MIT/Perl/etc... licensed code, at both work and play, to
> give any other type of license a fair shake. If I can't legally look
> inside, modify, and share it with people openly, I don't want to touch
> it.

I'll alert the media.

>
> Finally, I think there are far too few evangelists in the lisp world.

http://wiki.alu.org:80/RtL_Highlight_Film

> (There are plenty of lisp evangelists outside of the lisp world,
> though.)  If you do something a certain way, don't be ashamed of
> standing up and telling people that your way is the right way. When I
> am learning the ropes, it is so much easier to simply rely on someone
> else's experience, even if ultimately I will discover it is flawed. If
> you really like your way of doing GUIs in lisp, by all means, be proud
> and let me know.

"We have a pool. We have a pool and a pond." (McClim would be good for you.)

kenny (wondering where the hell he put the keys to the kennel)

--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/

"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius

Jonathan Gardner wrote:
> I know this is a FAQ, but I still don't have any answers, at least
> answers that I like.
>
> But let me ask it in the most vulgar way possible, with blunt
> observations:
>
> Where's the GUI?
[snip]
the DOM is the new GUI.

--
http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM

On 1 Apr, 19:23, Jonathan Gardner <jgard...@jonathangardner.net>
wrote:
> I know this is a FAQ, but I still don't have any answers, at least
> answers that I like.
>
> But let me ask it in the most vulgar way possible, with blunt
> observations:
>
> Where's the GUI?
>
> * McCLIM is a wart. If someone honestly thinks I should pursue this,
> I'm all ears. Otherwise, it is slow, incompatible with today's GUI
> standards, and too big for its own good. I mean, it takes five minutes
> to start up the demodemo.
>
> * A lisp-qt thingy would be ideal for me, since I love Qt. If someone
> has some ideas, then I am open. I looked at the CFFI-Qt attempt over
> at Sourceforge (lcq I think it is called) and it seg faults on me. I
> don't know how to approach seg faults in lisp. If someone has this
> working, a tutorial would be very nice.
>
> * I have a bias against Gtk. I think it stinks. But I am open if
> someone says that this is the best way to go, I'll give Gtk another
> chance.
>
> * I took a passing look at Cello, but it seems to be almost 2 years
> since anyone has done anything on it. I'll give it another chance if
> someone says it's worth the time. Cello seems to be the right way to
> go based on its mission statement. After all, you aren't confined to C
> (Gtk) or C++ (Qt) when you code in lisp, so you don't have to limit
> yourself to their conventions. A "Getting Started" guide for a newbie
> like me that is still experiencing the thrill of discovering things
> like multiple return values would be nice.

There's also celtk and cells-gtk.  I've recently added an expander
widget
to celtk a version of which is maintained at gitorious

http://gitorious.org/projects/celtk

and cells-gtk has recently undergone a bit of a facelift too.  None of
these are the finished article but there are a few of us having fun
with
it.  If you fancy getting in at the beginning of a revolutionary
project,
this is where to be.

I think you've also heard Kenny and I talking about a web front end to
this stuff.  One avenue for development here would be to embed a
browser's
rendering engine into a tk/gtk window.  We already have the
code to generate the html, all we need is to write the tk extension
and
we have ourselves a lisp/tk version of Adobe AIR.

See recent discussions on the cells mailing list for more info on
this.

--
Andy

On Apr 1, 11:53=A0am, Ken Tilton <kennytil...@optonline.net> wrote: 
>
> Stop sucking up to me.
>

You didn't write McClim, did you? (I honestly don't know.)

>
> Meanwhile you'll be playing Worlds of Warcraft, I presume.
>

I don't like the license. ;-) Unless you've written the lispy open-
source version and have it sitting in CVS somewhere...
 
>
> Two years?! Damn, I knew I have been playing too much Freecell. I guess
> finishing hands in thirty seconds on average might have been another clue.=[/color
]

>

Alright, I'll take a look at it. I guess when a language is 50 years
old, 2 years is but the blink of an eye. Elsewhere, 2 years would be
about 15 versions too old.
 
>
> Yes, it is rather indecently fun having the whole framework in reach,
> and being the developer so you can break it any time you like. The Cells
> don't hurt, either. And when you have Cells the GUIs don't want to be
> static so the fixed widget mentality of standard GUI frameworks looks
> like the stone age.
>

Very interesting.
 
>
> I am not sure you can have it both ways. If you want to play dumb use a
> framework like LTk, if you want to be a player roll up your sleeves and
> stop asking to be spoon fed.
>

It sounds like lisp is one of those languages where people actually
get away with grunting menacingly when asking for pointers.

I'll read the code, and go back to my kennel, or whatever it is you
call it that you like to keep newbies like myself.
 
>
> http://wiki.alu.org:80/RtL_Highlight_Film
>

I mean, *within* the lisp community. You know, people that go, "SBCL
rocks. CLISP sucks. Don't use CLISP." Those kinds of guys. You guys
are either too nice to each other, or you get your kicks watching
people struggle to learn the hard way what everyone already knows.

>
> "We have a pool. We have a pool and a pond." (McClim would be good for you=[/color
]
.)
>

I just spent twenty minutes searching google for that quote. Now I am
going to have to watch an entire movie just to fully understand the
quote. Are you happy now, Ken?

On Apr 1, 12:29=A0pm, vanekl <va...@acd.net> wrote: 
>
> the DOM is the new GUI.
>

As a guy who writes web apps for a living, I am hoping and praying
that you aren't right.

Life would really, really, really suck if all we had was HTML and
javascript.

Andy Chambers wrote:
> On 1 Apr, 19:23, Jonathan Gardner <jgard...@jonathangardner.net>
> wrote:
> 
>
>
> There's also celtk and cells-gtk.  I've recently added an expander
> widget
> to celtk a version of which is maintained at gitorious
>
> http://gitorious.org/projects/celtk
>
> and cells-gtk has recently undergone a bit of a facelift too.  None of
> these are the finished article but there are a few of us having fun
> with
> it.  If you fancy getting in at the beginning of a revolutionary
> project,
> this is where to be.
>
> I think you've also heard Kenny and I talking about a web front end to
> this stuff.

Oh, good, I meant to suggest that as well. If the OP is a student they
can do a Google SoC on a Lisp GUI, esp. Open AIR which I think may not
be as great GUI-wise as Cello but I think at this stage something
portable to the Web trumps something not.

>  One avenue for development here would be to embed a
> browser's
> rendering engine into a tk/gtk window.  We already have the
> code to generate the html, all we need is to write the tk extension
> and
> we have ourselves a lisp/tk version of Adobe AIR.

Oh, I thought WebKit included the whole shebang. So we still have to
create a widget for WebKit to live in? Not too bad, I guess. I kinda do
that with my GUIs: get the window and event stream from something like
win32 or Tk, do everything in the content area myself with GDT or opengl.

kenny

--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/

"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius

Jonathan Gardner wrote:
> On Apr 1, 11:53 am, Ken Tilton <kennytil...@optonline.net> wrote:
> 
>
>
> You didn't write McClim, did you? (I honestly don't know.)

You have the irony arrow in the wrong direction. I once said something
bad about McClim, the #lisp yobbos have had me on the run ever since.
 
>
>
> I don't like the license. ;-) Unless you've written the lispy open-
> source version and have it sitting in CVS somewhere...
>
> 
>
>
> Alright, I'll take a look at it. I guess when a language is 50 years
> old, 2 years is but the blink of an eye. Elsewhere, 2 years would be
> about 15 versions too old.

Maybe I just forgot to commit that directory. There are so many. I am
using it to develop this: http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/

You'll need to build Celtk first, it sits on top of that now.

> It sounds like lisp is one of those languages where people actually
> get away with grunting menacingly when asking for pointers.
>
> I'll read the code, and go back to my kennel, or whatever it is you
> call it that you like to keep newbies like myself.

No, the kennel is where we keep the hounds. Where /they/ keep noobs
after catching them we do not know.

> I just spent twenty minutes searching google for that quote. Now I am
> going to have to watch an entire movie just to fully understand the
> quote. Are you happy now, Ken?

Having introduced someone to one of the funniest movies extant? Let's
just say... It's in the hole!

kenny (former assistant greenskeeper)

--
http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/

"In the morning, hear the Way;
in the evening, die content!"
-- Confucius

On Apr 1, 7:23 pm, Jonathan Gardner <jgard...@jonathangardner.net>
wrote:

> Where's the GUI?

LTk works pretty well for me and is easy to get up and running.

> Finally, I think there are far too few evangelists in the lisp world.

I sometimes wonder for these languages that have marketing departments
why they're spending their time doing PR rather than programming?
Maybe they're not having as much fun as we are...

--
Phil
http://phil.nullable.eu/