Confessions of a CoBOL programmer

http://www.computerworld.com/action...br />
=9062478

In article <9q9qu35lpv209ksgt2rjuiioju662okf4o@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee  <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>http://www.computerworld.com/action...906247
8

From the above:

--begin quoted text:

In a 2007 Micro Focus survey of its customers, more than 75% of CIOs said
they would need more Cobol programmers over the next five years, and 73%
were already having a hard time finding trained Cobol professionals.

--end quoted text

Never mind that Micro Focus is looking to sell various products... note,
once again, the 'already having a hard time finding trained Cobol
professionals'.

At what rate (or range of rates)?

(If it is true that Everyone Knows the population having (skill) is older
and Everyone Knows that older workers frequently command higher salaries
then Everyone Knows the population having (skill) may frequently command
higher salaries... on the other hand... the ability of those human-being
type folks to deny what seem to be logically valid conclusions has been
seen before... let me see... nigh a decade back, from
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp...
=source>

--begin quoted text:

On what do I base my conclusion?  Why... on A Story, of course...
apochryphal, perhaps, but Eminently Plausible:

A corporate seminar on drug-abuse in the workplace was being addressed by
a speaker.  He began by asking 'How many of you think that drug abuse is a
problem in your community?'


The audience, suits, corner-office-dwellers and their sycophants,
dutifully raised hands... this is something Everyone Knows, right?


The speaker continued, quackity quack, woof woof... and then asked 'Now,
how many of you think that your workforce accurately reflects the
composition of your community?'


Again hands went up... as they'd damned well *better*, otherwise a hurkin'
great EEO lawsuit comes down the pike.  Anyhow, the speaker then drones
on, blurbity blurble, honk honk wheet... and then asks 'Now, how many of
you think that drug abuse is a problem in your workforce?'


No hands go up.

--end quoted text

DD

On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <9q9qu35lpv209ksgt2rjuiioju662ok...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee =A0<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> 
.
>
> From the above:
>
> --begin quoted text:
>
> In a 2007 Micro Focus survey of its customers, more than 75% of CIOs said
> they would need more Cobol programmers over the next five years, and 73%
> were already having a hard time finding trained Cobol professionals.
>
> --end quoted text
>
> Never mind that Micro Focus is looking to sell various products... note,
> once again, the 'already having a hard time finding trained Cobol
> professionals'.
>
> At what rate (or range of rates)? =A0
>

Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:32:16 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>(If it is true that Everyone Knows the population having (skill) is older
>and Everyone Knows that older workers frequently command higher salaries
>then Everyone Knows the population having (skill) may frequently command
>higher salaries... on the other hand... the ability of those human-being
>type folks to deny what seem to be logically valid conclusions has been
>seen before... let me see... nigh a decade back, from
><http://groups.google.com/group/comp...=source
>

I see your point, and I love your story that I started to quote below.
But I'm not sure that I get the same definitive lesson.

For instance, everybody raising their hand to accept the premises but
not the logical conclusion could be because they were wrong in
accepting the premises.

Or it could be that the definitions of "problems a community has" and
"problems that a company has" are related.

Of course, that might be your point.

>--begin quoted text:
>
>On what do I base my conclusion?  Why... on A Story, of course...
>apochryphal, perhaps, but Eminently Plausible:
>
>A corporate seminar on drug-abuse in the workplace was being addressed by
>a speaker.  He began by asking 'How many of you think that drug abuse is a
>problem in your community?'

In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.co
m>,
Alistair  <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote: 
>
>Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
>programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).

Have they tried doubling their rates?  Have they offered programmers in
other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
completion of the course so they don't get hired away?

DD

In article <cfgqu3tl6n58nukfgug5lvsqpjbqsfvurf@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee  <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:32:16 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
> 
>
>I see your point, and I love your story that I started to quote below.
>But I'm not sure that I get the same definitive lesson.
>
>For instance, everybody raising their hand to accept the premises but
>not the logical conclusion could be because they were wrong in
>accepting the premises.

Mr Brazee, that would appear to indicate that they misrepresented their
thoughts - 'how many of you think' - or that their thoughts had changed
during the short course of the presentation.

'How many of you think that all men are mortal?' (hands up)
'How many of you think that Socrates is a man?' (hands up)
'How many of you think that Socrates is mortal?'  'Uh..... maybe I was
wrong when I said I thought all men are mortal... or maybe Socrates isn't
a man now.'

>
>Or it could be that the definitions of "problems a community has" and
>"problems that a company has" are related.
>
>Of course, that might be your point.

What I attempted to demonstrate, Mr Brazee, was that the logical abilities
demonstrated by some folks in Corporate America can reach levels of
refusing to accept things which 'follow of necessity'.

(note - Aristotle, Prior Analytics, Book I, Part 1, paragraph 4, sentence
1: 'A syllogism is discourse in which, certain things being stated,
something other than what is stated follows of necessity from their being
so. I mean by the last phrase that they produce the consequence, and by
this, that no further term is required from without in order to make the
consequence necessary.' - http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/prior.mb.txt )

DD

>>> On 3/28/2008 at 12:47 PM, in message
<ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote: 
>http://www.computerworld.com/action...intArticleBa... 
> said 
>
> Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
> programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).

Looking around and doing a bit of guessing about ages, our Cobol programmers
fall in the following age groups:

30's - 5
40's - 8
50's - 4
60's - 2

Something interesting to note is that nine of us were in other areas of the
company prior to joining the programming department.  All nine fall in to
the under-fifty group.

Frank

In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.co
m>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> writes:
> On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote: 
> Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
> programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).

What's wrong with programmers over 50?

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

In article <655fquF2dfn1uU1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:

[snip]

>What's wrong with programmers over 50?

That depends on one's criteria for 'wrong', Mr Gunshannon.  Some people
might say that the ability to look a Corner Office Idiot in the eye and
say 'Your 'wonderful innovation' is something I saw at (othercorp) a
couple of decades back; it failed then because of (etc)' is something so
very Wrong that such a person should not be employed by the organisation.

Other people might say 'a person under 35 increases the company's
insurance premium by ($n) less than a person over 45; hiring Just Another
Programmer who'll cost the company more is wrong.'

And, of course there's always what was mentioned earlier in the thread,
along the lines of 'older workers have more experience, people with more
experience cost more money, spending more money is wrong.'

On the other hand... if Everyone Knows that hiring older workers is a
good, profitable manuever, benefitting both the worker and the
organisation so that the organisation gains enough from the worker's
experience that the extra amount spent is well-rewarded...

... then the Free Market would not have required anyone to even *think* of
passing laws like the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) of 1967
or the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 or the amendment of the ADEA in 1986
or... need I continue?  There's so very much seen as 'wrong' about hiring
and retaining older workers that cases go to the United States Supreme
Court about it.

DD

On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.=[/color
]
com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alistair =A0<alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote: 
> 
a...
> 
> 
> 
id 
% 
> 
> 
, 
> 
> 
>
> Have they tried doubling their rates?

As a man who has consistently avoided promotion to management you
should realise that that is a no-no.

?=A0Have they offered programmers in
> other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
> completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
>


The java programmers aren't interested.